DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0098
92
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Mr. R W.
Carlyle.
4 Apr., 1908.
44301. Fourthly, would you say that they should
give advice and be of assistance to Local Goverments
when asked to do so ?—Yes.
44302. I say “ when asked,” because I suggest that
unless a Local Government feels it cannot get the
result it seeks through its own experts, the provincial
experts ought not to be overshadowed by imperial
experts, but that it should be at the option of the
Local Government to consult the Government of
India ; would you agree with that ?—Certainly ; the
relations should be such that the Local Government
should be free to consult them or not.
44303. Practically does that not mean, to sum up,
that Inspectors-General are there to increase technical
knowledge all round, and to help those who have not
had time to study the various matters ?—Yes.
44304. Do you agree also that an Inspector-General
should have a perfectly free right as to touring ?—I
think so.
44305. And that he should offer help to Local
Governments while he is on tour in their territories ?
—Yes.
44306. Would you agree to two provisoes as regards
that, firstly that he should give notice to the Local
Government when he is coming, and offer to help them
if they want any help, and, secondly, that he should
send to the Local Government when leaving the prov-
vince a complete note of the result of his visit ?—Yes.
44307. Would you also agree that the Government
of India expert might correspond either informally or
formally, as the Local Government might prefer, with
regard to purely scientific matters, with the provincial
experts, provided that he first had very strict orders to
refuse to receive any correspondence outside that
sphere ; the object being that the provincial expert
should not suddenly take up some outside question
and endeavour to enlist the sympathies of the imperial
expert possibly in disregard of his own Government ?
—I think that would be improper, and that he ought
to refuse to have anything to do with that sort of
thing.
44308. And that he ought to have no authority, if
he wants returns or reports, to call for them except
through rhe department of the Government of India ?
—Yes.
44309. Do you agree that there is a risk of his
assuming power ?—Yes ; I quite agree.
44310. And secondly that that tends to give him an
administrative footing with the Government of India,
because he is so closely connected with them ?—Yes ;
a strong man in that position would naturally exercise
a good deal of influence.
44311. Would you agree that there is a great risk
that he might become an alternative channel of com-
munication ? I mean this, taking it from a suggestion
of the Home Department; the Inspector-General
might come back to headquarters, and note on a case,
and say, “ The Local Government says this, that, and
the other is what happens ; as a matter of fact it does
not happen ; I have been there and I have seen that
something else happens and you ought to decide so
and so ” ; is that not a risk ?—There is a risk' of that,
of course.
44312. That is to say, you might take the advice of
an expert gentleman who has been on the spot a week,
against the opinion of the responsible Government, on
a direct conflict of fact ?■—There may be that risk.
44313. Another thing suggested is that the Inspector-
General is essential in the process of decentralization
in order to keep the Government of India informed as
to what is going on in the provinces ; but is that not
a function of a Local Government ?—No ; I think it
is quite possible the Government of India might not
understand what is going on without his aid ; there
is great difficulty in putting everything into corre-
spondence, and the Inspector-General might help to
clear up doubtful points.
44314. So far as the Government of India do rely
on him, in preference to the Local Government, for
settling administrative and not merely technical points,
and so far as they rely on him, in preference to the
Local Government, for the correctness of information,
is there not the risk that you duplicate your means of
administration to the detriment of the Local Govern-
ment ?—Yes ; I think that is so, but I do not think it
is a proper use for such an officer.
44315. Would you agree, if that risk exists, that one
way, and perhaps an important way, of meeting it
would be that, when he notes on a case, and differs
completely from the Local Government, either as to
facts or opinions, a copy of his notes should go down
to the Local Government for consideration before the
Member in Charge deals with the case ?—I do not
think I would take that line. A Local Government
ought to have some chance, in any big scheme, of having
personal access to the Government of India before
orders are passed.
44316. Would it not eventually save time if the
Local Government saw the case again at that stage, if
there was a considerable conflict of opinion ?—I am
not sure that you could always let the Local Govern-
ment see his opinion.
44317. Would it not operate in two ways : in the
first place the Local Government would (just aS' the
Lieutenant-Governor in Bengal has arranged to get in
touch with the Board of Kevenue, giving them the
last word) give the last opinion before orders are
recorded, and in the next place it would make
the expert adviser very much more careful as to
what he said with regard to facts and opinions ?—Yes,
but I am not sure that it might not make him too
careful. I would not go so far as you suggest.
44318. All Local Governments send up monthly
proceedings to the Government of India ?—Yes.
44319. What is done with them when they get to
the Government of India ?—I think they are generally
filed. Of course, occasionally they are wanted for a
case.
44320. Are they systematically read ?—Yes ; they
are always' read in rny department, to see if there is
anything of importance, and any important paper is
always brought up.
44321. Is not any important order printed in them
with the correspondence in fell ?—Yes.
44322. And, therefore, the suggestion that, if decen-
tralization proceeds, the Government of India must
have these Inspectors-General, because it is essential
that they should have some machinery for keeping
them continuously informed of what is going on in
the different provinces, and to bring to their notice
matters which can only be learned on the spot, is
entirely unnecessary, and they are not required, for the
particular purpose because you have the detailed pro-
ceedings before you every month ?—I do not think the
proceedings give you all you want to know.
44323. Do they not give you the clue, if you want
to know more ?—Yes, they do give a clue.
44324. With regard to disforestation you suggest
that it might be necessary to give different powers in
regard to the different classes of forests in different
Presidencies, but would that not be a difficult thing to
do by any specific amendment of section 26 of the
Forest Act ?—Yes, it would be difficult.
44325. But would it not be perfectly simple, to do it
if you had for your use an elastic delegating Act ?—Do
you mean an elastic delegating Act in forest matters ?
44326. No : I mean a general delegating Act.—I am
inclined to object to a general delegating Act; I think
it would meet with very strong opposition.
44327. But in a question like that, would it not be
the most convenient means you could have of adjusting
the different powers needed in the different provinces ?
—I think a general delegating Act would be of great
convenience, and in reference to this matter too, but
whether it would be advisable is another matter.
44328. (Mr. Meyer.) Section 26 of the Forest Act
could be perfectly easily altered in the direction desired
by substituting for the previous sanction of the
Government of India, “ subject to the control of the
Governor-General in Council,” or, “ subject to such
conditions as the Governor-General in Council may
from time to time prescribe ” ?—Yes.
44329. And any such amendments could perfectly
well be put into a schedule to a Delegation Act, which
once for all altered the sections in which it was con-
sidered undesirable that the previous sanction of the
Governor-General in Council should be uniformly
maintained ?—Yes.
44330. With regard to the monthly proceedings, are
they not necessarily fragmentary ? Take for instance,
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Mr. R W.
Carlyle.
4 Apr., 1908.
44301. Fourthly, would you say that they should
give advice and be of assistance to Local Goverments
when asked to do so ?—Yes.
44302. I say “ when asked,” because I suggest that
unless a Local Government feels it cannot get the
result it seeks through its own experts, the provincial
experts ought not to be overshadowed by imperial
experts, but that it should be at the option of the
Local Government to consult the Government of
India ; would you agree with that ?—Certainly ; the
relations should be such that the Local Government
should be free to consult them or not.
44303. Practically does that not mean, to sum up,
that Inspectors-General are there to increase technical
knowledge all round, and to help those who have not
had time to study the various matters ?—Yes.
44304. Do you agree also that an Inspector-General
should have a perfectly free right as to touring ?—I
think so.
44305. And that he should offer help to Local
Governments while he is on tour in their territories ?
—Yes.
44306. Would you agree to two provisoes as regards
that, firstly that he should give notice to the Local
Government when he is coming, and offer to help them
if they want any help, and, secondly, that he should
send to the Local Government when leaving the prov-
vince a complete note of the result of his visit ?—Yes.
44307. Would you also agree that the Government
of India expert might correspond either informally or
formally, as the Local Government might prefer, with
regard to purely scientific matters, with the provincial
experts, provided that he first had very strict orders to
refuse to receive any correspondence outside that
sphere ; the object being that the provincial expert
should not suddenly take up some outside question
and endeavour to enlist the sympathies of the imperial
expert possibly in disregard of his own Government ?
—I think that would be improper, and that he ought
to refuse to have anything to do with that sort of
thing.
44308. And that he ought to have no authority, if
he wants returns or reports, to call for them except
through rhe department of the Government of India ?
—Yes.
44309. Do you agree that there is a risk of his
assuming power ?—Yes ; I quite agree.
44310. And secondly that that tends to give him an
administrative footing with the Government of India,
because he is so closely connected with them ?—Yes ;
a strong man in that position would naturally exercise
a good deal of influence.
44311. Would you agree that there is a great risk
that he might become an alternative channel of com-
munication ? I mean this, taking it from a suggestion
of the Home Department; the Inspector-General
might come back to headquarters, and note on a case,
and say, “ The Local Government says this, that, and
the other is what happens ; as a matter of fact it does
not happen ; I have been there and I have seen that
something else happens and you ought to decide so
and so ” ; is that not a risk ?—There is a risk' of that,
of course.
44312. That is to say, you might take the advice of
an expert gentleman who has been on the spot a week,
against the opinion of the responsible Government, on
a direct conflict of fact ?■—There may be that risk.
44313. Another thing suggested is that the Inspector-
General is essential in the process of decentralization
in order to keep the Government of India informed as
to what is going on in the provinces ; but is that not
a function of a Local Government ?—No ; I think it
is quite possible the Government of India might not
understand what is going on without his aid ; there
is great difficulty in putting everything into corre-
spondence, and the Inspector-General might help to
clear up doubtful points.
44314. So far as the Government of India do rely
on him, in preference to the Local Government, for
settling administrative and not merely technical points,
and so far as they rely on him, in preference to the
Local Government, for the correctness of information,
is there not the risk that you duplicate your means of
administration to the detriment of the Local Govern-
ment ?—Yes ; I think that is so, but I do not think it
is a proper use for such an officer.
44315. Would you agree, if that risk exists, that one
way, and perhaps an important way, of meeting it
would be that, when he notes on a case, and differs
completely from the Local Government, either as to
facts or opinions, a copy of his notes should go down
to the Local Government for consideration before the
Member in Charge deals with the case ?—I do not
think I would take that line. A Local Government
ought to have some chance, in any big scheme, of having
personal access to the Government of India before
orders are passed.
44316. Would it not eventually save time if the
Local Government saw the case again at that stage, if
there was a considerable conflict of opinion ?—I am
not sure that you could always let the Local Govern-
ment see his opinion.
44317. Would it not operate in two ways : in the
first place the Local Government would (just aS' the
Lieutenant-Governor in Bengal has arranged to get in
touch with the Board of Kevenue, giving them the
last word) give the last opinion before orders are
recorded, and in the next place it would make
the expert adviser very much more careful as to
what he said with regard to facts and opinions ?—Yes,
but I am not sure that it might not make him too
careful. I would not go so far as you suggest.
44318. All Local Governments send up monthly
proceedings to the Government of India ?—Yes.
44319. What is done with them when they get to
the Government of India ?—I think they are generally
filed. Of course, occasionally they are wanted for a
case.
44320. Are they systematically read ?—Yes ; they
are always' read in rny department, to see if there is
anything of importance, and any important paper is
always brought up.
44321. Is not any important order printed in them
with the correspondence in fell ?—Yes.
44322. And, therefore, the suggestion that, if decen-
tralization proceeds, the Government of India must
have these Inspectors-General, because it is essential
that they should have some machinery for keeping
them continuously informed of what is going on in
the different provinces, and to bring to their notice
matters which can only be learned on the spot, is
entirely unnecessary, and they are not required, for the
particular purpose because you have the detailed pro-
ceedings before you every month ?—I do not think the
proceedings give you all you want to know.
44323. Do they not give you the clue, if you want
to know more ?—Yes, they do give a clue.
44324. With regard to disforestation you suggest
that it might be necessary to give different powers in
regard to the different classes of forests in different
Presidencies, but would that not be a difficult thing to
do by any specific amendment of section 26 of the
Forest Act ?—Yes, it would be difficult.
44325. But would it not be perfectly simple, to do it
if you had for your use an elastic delegating Act ?—Do
you mean an elastic delegating Act in forest matters ?
44326. No : I mean a general delegating Act.—I am
inclined to object to a general delegating Act; I think
it would meet with very strong opposition.
44327. But in a question like that, would it not be
the most convenient means you could have of adjusting
the different powers needed in the different provinces ?
—I think a general delegating Act would be of great
convenience, and in reference to this matter too, but
whether it would be advisable is another matter.
44328. (Mr. Meyer.) Section 26 of the Forest Act
could be perfectly easily altered in the direction desired
by substituting for the previous sanction of the
Government of India, “ subject to the control of the
Governor-General in Council,” or, “ subject to such
conditions as the Governor-General in Council may
from time to time prescribe ” ?—Yes.
44329. And any such amendments could perfectly
well be put into a schedule to a Delegation Act, which
once for all altered the sections in which it was con-
sidered undesirable that the previous sanction of the
Governor-General in Council should be uniformly
maintained ?—Yes.
44330. With regard to the monthly proceedings, are
they not necessarily fragmentary ? Take for instance,