DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0113
)
ROYAL COMMISSION WON' DECENTRALIZATION. 107
44509. But with regard to Chief Engineers you
do hot hold that view ; for what reason ?—I prefer
the present system because it equalises promotion,
and because fresh blood is sometimes an
advantage.
44510. If a Local Government had a particular
desire to get a particular man who they thought
would suit them best, do you fall in with their
views ?—We do as far as possible, but very often
when they object to take a man at first as Chief
Engineer, they afterwards admit when they have
had that man transferred to them, that he was
the best choice and were very glad to have him.
44511. Supposing a Local Government said they
wanted a particular man, is there any reason why
they should not choose him ?—Yes, if he was a
very junior man and we had a senior man who
was every bit as good, or better.
44512. Even if the Local Government did not
think so?—I think so, certainly.
44513. You think it would be better to give
them someone they did not want?—Perhaps they
do not know anything about the other man,
whereas the Government of India do know his
record, that he is a first-rate man, and, in addition,
senior.
44514. Might not the Local Government say “ We
want this man, although he is junior, because we
know he is efficient, gets on well with the staff, he
knows the local conditions very well, and is the
man we want ” ? If they pay the officer should
they not have power to appoint him ?—It would
create discontent in the department if a junior man
were promoted over a senior man just as good.
44515. But that would be the responsibility of
the Local Government?—No. The senior man
might be in another province.
44516. And if they wanted to take that respon-
sibility would you not allow them?—They cannot
take the responsibility as several provinces are
concerned.
44517. With regard to the rules which exist in
connection with the residences of Government
officials, you think if Local Governments were
empowered to deal with the matter themselves,
there would be a substantial increase of expendi-
ture at first?—Yes, there probably would be at
first.
44518. What is your reason for that view ?—From
the estimates that have come up from time to time.
44519. What is the sort of amount that these
estimates cover?—It might be anything ; it might
be from, say, Rs. 10,000 to Rs. 30,000 or more.
44520. I understood that you were prepared to
give Superintending Engineers power to sanction,
from a technical point of view, up to something
very much above that?—Yes.
44521. Therefore so far as the technical point of
view is concerned, there would not be any more
extravagance under the one plan than under the
other?—Yes, because there are certain rules under
which a man is not entitled to a house of more
than a certain value, but he is always wanting
the largest house he can get, knowing that he
cannot be charged any more than a certain per-
centage on his salary. You cannot charge a
man more than 10 per cent, on his salary, and
assuming he was only entitled to a house costing
Rs. 15,000, he might say, “This is not good
enough for me, I want this room and that room ” ;
so that the house might finally cost Rs. 40,000.
44522. Then does the control of the Government
of India consist in criticizing the size of the house ?
—It is for the Local Goverment to consider that,
but if they think they cannot reduce it to the
recognized cost, then they ask the Government of
India to sanction an increase, and that is where
our control comes in.
44523. Is not the Local Government more likely
to know the particular class of house required for
an officer?—-No; I do not think so; it is the
officer for whom the house is going to be built who
is in communication probably with the Executive
Engineer. He says he wants this, that, and the
other ; the Executive Engineer puts it down ; he
sends it up to the Chief Engineer, who says the
house cannot be built for any thing less, and it
does not seem to him to be an extravagant esti-
mate. The Local Government may not have
time to go into it; it is sent on to the Govern-
ment of India, and here we can see whether the
house could be designed for less and bring it
within the amount laid down, and very often we
do it.
44524. (Chairman.) What is the standing of the
Engineer who looks into these questions on behalf
of the Government of India ?—There is myself and
the Consulting Architect.
44525. Do you look into all the schemes for
officers’ houses in detail?—Yes.
44526. (Mr. Hichens.) Then you think the Local
Government could be perfectly well trusted to put
up a large public building, such as public offices
and so on, provided it comes within the limit of
12£ lakhs, without control, but that they cannot
be trusted to put up a house costing Rs. 30,000
because the personal element would come in ?—
That is the point; the personal element is a very
strong one.
44527. Do you really think that the Local
Government are likely to go astray owing to per-
sonal considerations ?—I think they might, and
very often they have not the advice of a competent
architect to help them as we have.
44528. Is that not a question of technical effi-
ciency?—It is very largely a question of technical
efficiency.
44529. You are prepared to allow Superintend-
ing Engineers to sanction technically up to li or
even 2 lakhs for ordinary schemes ; if their tech-
nical skill is sufficient for that, why is it not
sufficient to sanction a house costing Rs. 30,000?—
Because they have not sufficient architectural
skill ; we know we are designing equally good
houses for much less sums than before.
44530. Is that not an argument for not giving
Superintending Engineers of Local Governments
powers of sanction beyond Rs. 30,000?—No. Cer-
tainly not, we are here referring to designs for
residences only.
44531. . Were, the residences at Peshawar sub-
mitted. to the Government of India?—I do not
know. The Consulting Architect has only been
appointed for a little over five years.
44532. (Mr. Dutt.) Are the Provincial Services
mainly recruited from Roorki, Poona and Sibpur?
—Yes.
44533. Who recruits the men, the Provincial
Government or the Chief Engineer under the Pro-
vincial Government?-—They enter by examination.
At Roorki there is an entrance examination, and
they compete at the end of their course for so
many guaranteed appointments.
44534. Who makes the selection, the Imperial
Government or the provincial Government ?—It is
by examination and competition. After the men
come out as qualified Engineers from Roorki, they
are posted by the Government of India to the
different provinces for practical training.
44535. So that the selection is made partly by
the Government of India?—No, the Government
of India have no say in the matter.
44536. Does the same rule apply to Sibpur or
Poona ?—I do not know anything about Poona ; I
think it only feeds Bombay, and the Government
of India have nothing to do with it.
44537. And Sibpur?—Sibpur supplies Bengal
only.
44538. Is the educational standard at Poona and
Sibpur as high as it is at Roorki?—I have never
been to the Poona College. I have been to Sib-
pur and Roorki, and I think the arrangements at
Sibpur are better than they are at Roorki, but the
men who enter are not quite such a good class,
and therefore, generally, the Roorki men have
proved the better.
44539. Has not the standard at Sibpur been
recently raised ?—The college seems to be im-
proving in its technical course.
Mr. L. M.
Jacob.
4 Apr., 1908
33383
O 2
ROYAL COMMISSION WON' DECENTRALIZATION. 107
44509. But with regard to Chief Engineers you
do hot hold that view ; for what reason ?—I prefer
the present system because it equalises promotion,
and because fresh blood is sometimes an
advantage.
44510. If a Local Government had a particular
desire to get a particular man who they thought
would suit them best, do you fall in with their
views ?—We do as far as possible, but very often
when they object to take a man at first as Chief
Engineer, they afterwards admit when they have
had that man transferred to them, that he was
the best choice and were very glad to have him.
44511. Supposing a Local Government said they
wanted a particular man, is there any reason why
they should not choose him ?—Yes, if he was a
very junior man and we had a senior man who
was every bit as good, or better.
44512. Even if the Local Government did not
think so?—I think so, certainly.
44513. You think it would be better to give
them someone they did not want?—Perhaps they
do not know anything about the other man,
whereas the Government of India do know his
record, that he is a first-rate man, and, in addition,
senior.
44514. Might not the Local Government say “ We
want this man, although he is junior, because we
know he is efficient, gets on well with the staff, he
knows the local conditions very well, and is the
man we want ” ? If they pay the officer should
they not have power to appoint him ?—It would
create discontent in the department if a junior man
were promoted over a senior man just as good.
44515. But that would be the responsibility of
the Local Government?—No. The senior man
might be in another province.
44516. And if they wanted to take that respon-
sibility would you not allow them?—They cannot
take the responsibility as several provinces are
concerned.
44517. With regard to the rules which exist in
connection with the residences of Government
officials, you think if Local Governments were
empowered to deal with the matter themselves,
there would be a substantial increase of expendi-
ture at first?—Yes, there probably would be at
first.
44518. What is your reason for that view ?—From
the estimates that have come up from time to time.
44519. What is the sort of amount that these
estimates cover?—It might be anything ; it might
be from, say, Rs. 10,000 to Rs. 30,000 or more.
44520. I understood that you were prepared to
give Superintending Engineers power to sanction,
from a technical point of view, up to something
very much above that?—Yes.
44521. Therefore so far as the technical point of
view is concerned, there would not be any more
extravagance under the one plan than under the
other?—Yes, because there are certain rules under
which a man is not entitled to a house of more
than a certain value, but he is always wanting
the largest house he can get, knowing that he
cannot be charged any more than a certain per-
centage on his salary. You cannot charge a
man more than 10 per cent, on his salary, and
assuming he was only entitled to a house costing
Rs. 15,000, he might say, “This is not good
enough for me, I want this room and that room ” ;
so that the house might finally cost Rs. 40,000.
44522. Then does the control of the Government
of India consist in criticizing the size of the house ?
—It is for the Local Goverment to consider that,
but if they think they cannot reduce it to the
recognized cost, then they ask the Government of
India to sanction an increase, and that is where
our control comes in.
44523. Is not the Local Government more likely
to know the particular class of house required for
an officer?—-No; I do not think so; it is the
officer for whom the house is going to be built who
is in communication probably with the Executive
Engineer. He says he wants this, that, and the
other ; the Executive Engineer puts it down ; he
sends it up to the Chief Engineer, who says the
house cannot be built for any thing less, and it
does not seem to him to be an extravagant esti-
mate. The Local Government may not have
time to go into it; it is sent on to the Govern-
ment of India, and here we can see whether the
house could be designed for less and bring it
within the amount laid down, and very often we
do it.
44524. (Chairman.) What is the standing of the
Engineer who looks into these questions on behalf
of the Government of India ?—There is myself and
the Consulting Architect.
44525. Do you look into all the schemes for
officers’ houses in detail?—Yes.
44526. (Mr. Hichens.) Then you think the Local
Government could be perfectly well trusted to put
up a large public building, such as public offices
and so on, provided it comes within the limit of
12£ lakhs, without control, but that they cannot
be trusted to put up a house costing Rs. 30,000
because the personal element would come in ?—
That is the point; the personal element is a very
strong one.
44527. Do you really think that the Local
Government are likely to go astray owing to per-
sonal considerations ?—I think they might, and
very often they have not the advice of a competent
architect to help them as we have.
44528. Is that not a question of technical effi-
ciency?—It is very largely a question of technical
efficiency.
44529. You are prepared to allow Superintend-
ing Engineers to sanction technically up to li or
even 2 lakhs for ordinary schemes ; if their tech-
nical skill is sufficient for that, why is it not
sufficient to sanction a house costing Rs. 30,000?—
Because they have not sufficient architectural
skill ; we know we are designing equally good
houses for much less sums than before.
44530. Is that not an argument for not giving
Superintending Engineers of Local Governments
powers of sanction beyond Rs. 30,000?—No. Cer-
tainly not, we are here referring to designs for
residences only.
44531. . Were, the residences at Peshawar sub-
mitted. to the Government of India?—I do not
know. The Consulting Architect has only been
appointed for a little over five years.
44532. (Mr. Dutt.) Are the Provincial Services
mainly recruited from Roorki, Poona and Sibpur?
—Yes.
44533. Who recruits the men, the Provincial
Government or the Chief Engineer under the Pro-
vincial Government?-—They enter by examination.
At Roorki there is an entrance examination, and
they compete at the end of their course for so
many guaranteed appointments.
44534. Who makes the selection, the Imperial
Government or the provincial Government ?—It is
by examination and competition. After the men
come out as qualified Engineers from Roorki, they
are posted by the Government of India to the
different provinces for practical training.
44535. So that the selection is made partly by
the Government of India?—No, the Government
of India have no say in the matter.
44536. Does the same rule apply to Sibpur or
Poona ?—I do not know anything about Poona ; I
think it only feeds Bombay, and the Government
of India have nothing to do with it.
44537. And Sibpur?—Sibpur supplies Bengal
only.
44538. Is the educational standard at Poona and
Sibpur as high as it is at Roorki?—I have never
been to the Poona College. I have been to Sib-
pur and Roorki, and I think the arrangements at
Sibpur are better than they are at Roorki, but the
men who enter are not quite such a good class,
and therefore, generally, the Roorki men have
proved the better.
44539. Has not the standard at Sibpur been
recently raised ?—The college seems to be im-
proving in its technical course.
Mr. L. M.
Jacob.
4 Apr., 1908
33383
O 2