DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0128
Mr. J. S.
Meston.
6 Apr., 1908.
122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
44837. Would he settle that matter on behalf of the
Finance Department, not merely from the point of
view of whether you could find the funds, but whether
he thought the pay allotted to the different grades in
the establishment was correct ?—I referred only to
intermediate discussion ; the ultimate decision in any
case of importance would not rest with him ; he would
have to submit it.
44838. What sort of cases would he “ finally dispose
of ” himself ?—All three of us—the Secretary, the
Deputy Secretary, and the Under Secretary, do dispose
of comparatively small matters ; not very many small
matters come up to us fortunately, but all cases which
the Deputy Secretary or myself dispose of are tabu-
lated and a short abstract is submitted to the Hon’ble
Member for approval through me, so that either he,
or I, is able to interfere and call for any case which has
been decided finally without his, or my, seeing it.
44839. Do you do that constantly?—No, not con-
stantly, because as a rule the statement gives a clear
indication of the nature of the case.
44840. Do you indicate to the other departments of
Government concerned that you have had reason to
doubt the wisdom of your subordinate’s decision, and
that you propose to reverse it ?—No, we do not wash
our dirty linen outside ; if an order has issued under
my instructions which the Hon’ble Member thinks
incorrect, it would simply be revised, without any com-
munication of the reason why ; but these cases very
rarely occur, and the weekly statement has the effect
very often of enabling orders to be stopped before they
are issued.
44841. What is the distinction between expenditure
which has been put in the budget and expenditure
which on the other hand has not been specifically
sanctioned ; whom does the sanction come from ?—
There are two stages in regard to schemes of expendi-
ture ; there is the administrative sanction and the
budget sanction. I use the words somewhat loosely,
but the actual provision for the insertion of a scheme
in the budget is not, of itself, an authorisation to the
Executive Officer concerned to spend that money on
that particular scheme.
44842. The inclusion by whom ?—By the provincial
Government or the Imperial Government, as the case
may be. The mere fact that the money stands in the
budget is merely an anticipatory provision against the
administrative sanction which it is hoped will be given
to that scheme afterwards. As a rule we object to
inserting schemes in the budget unless there has been
administrative sanction, but cases do occur where there
has not been time to get administrative sanction and
they are occasionally admitted into the budget.
44843. In that particular does not your practice in
India differ very largely from the practice in the
United Kingdom ?—Yes, it does.
44844. Are schemes constantly put forward in the
budget either by the Imperial Government or provincial
Government which have not been administratively
sanctioned?—Yes, very frequently, but we try and
avoid that as far as possible.
44845. Is that a good practice ?—It is a question of
time. If a scheme comes forward towards the end of
the year, and it is an elaborate scheme which there is
no time to discuss on all sides, but there is a strong
prima facie probability that it will be accepted, the
Financial Department, either of the provincial or the
Imperial Government, may assent to provision being
made for it in the budget on the assumption that it
will be sanctioned.
44846. Then it has to be criticized either by the
provincial Government from the administrative point
of view, or by the Imperial Government from the
administrative point of view ?—Yes.
44847. And by whom is sanction finally supposed to
be given ?—The final sanction is given by the Adminis-
trative Department after formal consultation with the
Finance Department.
44848. Of either the provincial or the Imperial
Governments ?—Yes.
44849. How is that sanction notified ?—It is notified
through the Finance Department to the authority
which has submitted the scheme for approval, and who
is thereby authorised to go ahead with the expenditure
if the necessary funds have been provided.
44850. Could any extension of this system of
expenditure be made?—I have not considered that
point, but the existing system works smoothly and
well.
44851. I see that there are certain departments as to
which exceptions are permitted. Particularly in the
Department of Commerce and Industry, the Postal and
Telegraph Departments may order expenditure without
sanction, if it does not involve an outlay in excess of
the budget grants of those departments or a re-appro-
priation from one major head to another. The
Military Supply Department, and, I think, one or two
other departments have power to re-appropriate from
one major head to another up to 3 lakhs?—Yes.
44852. Could that power of re-appropriation from
one major head to another be extended to Heads of
Departments in the case of the Postal and Telegraph
Departments ?—It would not have any practical effect,
because the Postal Department is all under one major
head ; there may be one or two other major heads with
which it is connected, such as income-tax payments
from its officers, but the amounts affected are very
small; for all practical purposes we deal only with one
major head.
44853. The Postal and Telegraph Departments are
looked upon as one major head ?—The Postal Depart-
ment is one major head, and the Telegraph Department
is another major head.
44854. Is there not a certain amount of departmental
correspondence which takes place, either official or
demi-official ?—Yes.
44855. What approximately is the length of time
which a matter of any considerable local importance
takes in passing through your department on an inter-
departmental reference, say from the Home Department
or the Military Supply Department ?—If it is a matter
of any importance or urgency, the Secretary of that
department puts it into a box and sends it straight to
my room, and I probably note on it within half an hour
and submit it to the Hon’ble Member. Of course
there are many matters which are not of nearly so
much urgency, and which have to wait their turn.
44856. It has been suggested that cases might take
sometimes even so long as 6 or 7 months to go
through ?—I do not think so.
44857. You think that that would be very unlikely?
—It is a matter of very rare occurrence. I have in
mind a very important case on which the discussion
occupied a longer period than that ; it was the re-
organization of the Public Works Department, but
that was an enormously big scheme as to which it was
known that the views of the Secretary of State would
probably be considerably more moderate than ours,
and on which there was a great deal of discussion ; but
it did not lie in the Finance Department for any length
of time at any stage.
44858. But taking the question of the revision of an
establishment, how long would that occupy ?—If a case
of moderate dimensions, it might go through the
Finance Department in a week.
44859. How long would it remain in the department
which sent it up to you ?—I cannot say ; it depends
largely on whether they had to consult the original
proposer of the scheme.
44860*. On what general principles are the present
guasi-permanent settlements with the provinces based ?
What was the object in view in making these settle-
ments?—The general principles which underlie the
financial settlements made by the Government of India
with a Local Government are as follows :—
(a) That the Government of India shall retain
certain administrative services which it is
inexpedient to hand over to provincial
Governments, and that they shall reserve
the revenue from those services, and such
a share of the other public revenues as shall
be adequate to the expenditure falling upon
them.
(J) That the remaining administrative services of
the country being entrusted to provincial
Governments, each Local Government shall
receive an assured income which will be
independent of the needs of the Govern-
ment of India and sufficient for its normal
expenditure.
Meston.
6 Apr., 1908.
122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
44837. Would he settle that matter on behalf of the
Finance Department, not merely from the point of
view of whether you could find the funds, but whether
he thought the pay allotted to the different grades in
the establishment was correct ?—I referred only to
intermediate discussion ; the ultimate decision in any
case of importance would not rest with him ; he would
have to submit it.
44838. What sort of cases would he “ finally dispose
of ” himself ?—All three of us—the Secretary, the
Deputy Secretary, and the Under Secretary, do dispose
of comparatively small matters ; not very many small
matters come up to us fortunately, but all cases which
the Deputy Secretary or myself dispose of are tabu-
lated and a short abstract is submitted to the Hon’ble
Member for approval through me, so that either he,
or I, is able to interfere and call for any case which has
been decided finally without his, or my, seeing it.
44839. Do you do that constantly?—No, not con-
stantly, because as a rule the statement gives a clear
indication of the nature of the case.
44840. Do you indicate to the other departments of
Government concerned that you have had reason to
doubt the wisdom of your subordinate’s decision, and
that you propose to reverse it ?—No, we do not wash
our dirty linen outside ; if an order has issued under
my instructions which the Hon’ble Member thinks
incorrect, it would simply be revised, without any com-
munication of the reason why ; but these cases very
rarely occur, and the weekly statement has the effect
very often of enabling orders to be stopped before they
are issued.
44841. What is the distinction between expenditure
which has been put in the budget and expenditure
which on the other hand has not been specifically
sanctioned ; whom does the sanction come from ?—
There are two stages in regard to schemes of expendi-
ture ; there is the administrative sanction and the
budget sanction. I use the words somewhat loosely,
but the actual provision for the insertion of a scheme
in the budget is not, of itself, an authorisation to the
Executive Officer concerned to spend that money on
that particular scheme.
44842. The inclusion by whom ?—By the provincial
Government or the Imperial Government, as the case
may be. The mere fact that the money stands in the
budget is merely an anticipatory provision against the
administrative sanction which it is hoped will be given
to that scheme afterwards. As a rule we object to
inserting schemes in the budget unless there has been
administrative sanction, but cases do occur where there
has not been time to get administrative sanction and
they are occasionally admitted into the budget.
44843. In that particular does not your practice in
India differ very largely from the practice in the
United Kingdom ?—Yes, it does.
44844. Are schemes constantly put forward in the
budget either by the Imperial Government or provincial
Government which have not been administratively
sanctioned?—Yes, very frequently, but we try and
avoid that as far as possible.
44845. Is that a good practice ?—It is a question of
time. If a scheme comes forward towards the end of
the year, and it is an elaborate scheme which there is
no time to discuss on all sides, but there is a strong
prima facie probability that it will be accepted, the
Financial Department, either of the provincial or the
Imperial Government, may assent to provision being
made for it in the budget on the assumption that it
will be sanctioned.
44846. Then it has to be criticized either by the
provincial Government from the administrative point
of view, or by the Imperial Government from the
administrative point of view ?—Yes.
44847. And by whom is sanction finally supposed to
be given ?—The final sanction is given by the Adminis-
trative Department after formal consultation with the
Finance Department.
44848. Of either the provincial or the Imperial
Governments ?—Yes.
44849. How is that sanction notified ?—It is notified
through the Finance Department to the authority
which has submitted the scheme for approval, and who
is thereby authorised to go ahead with the expenditure
if the necessary funds have been provided.
44850. Could any extension of this system of
expenditure be made?—I have not considered that
point, but the existing system works smoothly and
well.
44851. I see that there are certain departments as to
which exceptions are permitted. Particularly in the
Department of Commerce and Industry, the Postal and
Telegraph Departments may order expenditure without
sanction, if it does not involve an outlay in excess of
the budget grants of those departments or a re-appro-
priation from one major head to another. The
Military Supply Department, and, I think, one or two
other departments have power to re-appropriate from
one major head to another up to 3 lakhs?—Yes.
44852. Could that power of re-appropriation from
one major head to another be extended to Heads of
Departments in the case of the Postal and Telegraph
Departments ?—It would not have any practical effect,
because the Postal Department is all under one major
head ; there may be one or two other major heads with
which it is connected, such as income-tax payments
from its officers, but the amounts affected are very
small; for all practical purposes we deal only with one
major head.
44853. The Postal and Telegraph Departments are
looked upon as one major head ?—The Postal Depart-
ment is one major head, and the Telegraph Department
is another major head.
44854. Is there not a certain amount of departmental
correspondence which takes place, either official or
demi-official ?—Yes.
44855. What approximately is the length of time
which a matter of any considerable local importance
takes in passing through your department on an inter-
departmental reference, say from the Home Department
or the Military Supply Department ?—If it is a matter
of any importance or urgency, the Secretary of that
department puts it into a box and sends it straight to
my room, and I probably note on it within half an hour
and submit it to the Hon’ble Member. Of course
there are many matters which are not of nearly so
much urgency, and which have to wait their turn.
44856. It has been suggested that cases might take
sometimes even so long as 6 or 7 months to go
through ?—I do not think so.
44857. You think that that would be very unlikely?
—It is a matter of very rare occurrence. I have in
mind a very important case on which the discussion
occupied a longer period than that ; it was the re-
organization of the Public Works Department, but
that was an enormously big scheme as to which it was
known that the views of the Secretary of State would
probably be considerably more moderate than ours,
and on which there was a great deal of discussion ; but
it did not lie in the Finance Department for any length
of time at any stage.
44858. But taking the question of the revision of an
establishment, how long would that occupy ?—If a case
of moderate dimensions, it might go through the
Finance Department in a week.
44859. How long would it remain in the department
which sent it up to you ?—I cannot say ; it depends
largely on whether they had to consult the original
proposer of the scheme.
44860*. On what general principles are the present
guasi-permanent settlements with the provinces based ?
What was the object in view in making these settle-
ments?—The general principles which underlie the
financial settlements made by the Government of India
with a Local Government are as follows :—
(a) That the Government of India shall retain
certain administrative services which it is
inexpedient to hand over to provincial
Governments, and that they shall reserve
the revenue from those services, and such
a share of the other public revenues as shall
be adequate to the expenditure falling upon
them.
(J) That the remaining administrative services of
the country being entrusted to provincial
Governments, each Local Government shall
receive an assured income which will be
independent of the needs of the Govern-
ment of India and sufficient for its normal
expenditure.