DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0147
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION. 141
respect of any one provincial budget ?—As regards
the current year, yes.
45114. Not the current year, but the forthcoming
year ?—No ; they have no information as regards the
requirements of the forthcoming year until the 20th
January, except for a preliminary six months forecast
which is made in December, which is a very rough
thing ; they have no information in detail of what
the Local Government proposes to budget for in the
coming year.
45115. Then I may take it that the Government of
India has no knowledge (except a rough estimate in
December) of the budget of the Local Government for
the forthcoming year until the 20th January?—The
December estimate is a globular estimate for the whole
of India, but for the individual provinces the first
intimation that the Government of India has of
the requirements of any Local Government for the
next year is when it receives the budget notes on the
20th January.
45116. You say here that you cannot receive them
on a later date than the 20th January for the first
time, because it is not until they have come in that the
■estimates of the great spending departments are sub-
mitted to you ?—That is so. It is not a matter that
follows ; it is a coincidence to a certain extent.
45117. When are the estimates of the great spending
departments made up ?—They come to us about the
middle of February.
45118. They do not depend on a fluctuating in-
come ?—The railways fluctuate very seriously, as we
find to our cost sometimes.
45119- Does the Post Office fluctuate?-—No; it is
pretty steady.
45120. Or the Public Works Department ?—No ;
that is more or less in one’s own hands.
45121. The Military Department?—Yes; the ex-
penditure fluctuates there.
45122. Does the ordinary normal expenditure under
military fluctuate ?—The normal expenditure does not
fluctuate, but the special expenditure does.
45123. Does the Marine Department fluctuate?—
No.
45124. Then would it not be possible so far as these
departments are concerned to have their estimates
rather earlier in the year than the middle of February?
—It would be possible, but it would give them a great
deal of inconvenience.
45125. Some of the great spending departments in
the United Kingdom submit their estimates long
/before February ; they submit them in November ?—■
That is so.
45126. Would it not be possible for the great spend-
ing departments in India to submit their estimates of
expenditure, say, in December, and thus enable you to
take the local budgets later and upon a more close
calculation of the knowledge of actuals ?— Of course
the actuals are just as important in the case of railways
as in any other case.
45127. But after all, the surplus actuals of the
Railway Department are of comparatively small
amount ?—They are liable to upset us very largely ;
they did last year.
45128. By about a million and a quarter sterling ?—
They sometimes alter towards the end of the year so
rapidly as to upset all our calculations,
45129. At all events, as regards these other depart-
ments, they could be submitted to you very much
■ earlier ?—I should like to consider that ; I have never
thought about it; I have no doubt it has been con-
sidered frequently, but I am not aware of all the
reasons for fixing the date. The India Office would
also have something to say on the point.
45130. If you could get in these estimates of the
great spending departments earlier, could you, by
means of working them up, postpone the first submis-
sion of provincial estimates to a somewhat later date ?
—I am rather inclined to think that even without that
it would be possible to take the provincial figures
somewhat later, if we dispensed with the somewhat
minute examination which we now give them.
45131. Take the case of Baluchistan again ; it was
said there that Rs. 20 was cut down out of a total
estimate of Rs. 29,390?—I do not think that that was
done by us ; that is done by the Comptroller of India
Treasuries.
45132. Is not that sort of criticism too minute for
the Government of India to indulge in ?—I should
have no objection to dispensing with it.
45133. I understand that if the Government of
India indulged in a somewhat less minute criticism of
details it could take the budgets from the Local Gov-
ernments at a somewhat later date?—I believe it is
possible. Even as it is, the pressure upon us is very
serious ; I am inclined to think personally that we
might scrutinize the local figures a little less studiously,
and perhaps receive them a few days later.
45134. If you got your provincial budgets at a some-
what later date than you do, would you have less
reason to suspect the accuracy of their estimating ?—I
hardly think so ; it would only be a difference between
their having eight months’ actuals to go upon and
having nine months’ actuals ; after all, in many
branches of the administration they are not guided
very much by the actuals of the current year.
45135. You yourselves were upset last year by the
later actuals of the ninth or tenth month of the Rail-
way Department ?—Yes.
45136. Might not the same thing apply to the Local
Government?—Not nearly to the same extent ; their
movements are much more regular.
45137. (Mr. Meyer.) Are not these provincial esti-
mates matters of great importance ?—They are.
45138. They concern your large imperial revenues
in the divided heads ?—They do.
45139. And the imperial surplus is likewise affected
by the actual extent to which the provincial Govern-
ments are either incurring expenditure out of balance
or passing surpluses into balance ?—That is so.
45140. Suppose, as is suggested, you took all these
matters a little later than the 20th J anuary, you would
be very bunched up at the end to get the budget out
before the 20th March ?—Yes, I have said so ; I think
the pressure would be very heavy.
45141. Of course, you have to alter things with
reference to another month’s actuals and so forth, but
the bulk of the criticism of the provincial estimates
takes place on the first edition ? —Yes, that is so.
45142. A question has been put as to the small
amount of time at your disposal for a real scrutiny.
Have you not in each case the notes of the Accountant
General ?—Yes.
45143. You also have two specially trained assistants
in your own office who are used to this budget work ?
—Yes. One of them is the superintendent of the
department, an officer drawing Rs. 500 a month ; the
other is an officer specially deputed during the budget
season from the Enrolled List, probably an officer
drawing Rs. 800 to Rs. 1,000, a trained Accounts
Officer.
45144. Your function as Secretary is really to pass
judgment on opinions, possibly conflicting, that are
put before you ?—Yes, that is so.
45145. How long does it take you, roughly, to deal
with a budget of one of the major provinces ?—In the
first edition I try to give a day to each large budget ;
two small provinces probably come into one day.
45146. Then as to taking the estimates for imperial
heads earlier, you mentioned railways as fluctuating.
Is not customs also a matter to which you have to give
special care ?—It is indeed.
45147. And in which we want really the very last
figures available in order to make a useful guess at
what the customs revenue will be at the end of the
year ?—Yes ; they have to be corrected up to the
eleventh month.
45148. In regard to these proposals of extending
the powers of Local Government in the matter of the
creation of appointments and the enhancement of
salaries to the same extent in provincial matters as the
Government of India now enjoy, thanks to the Secre-
tary of State, will that not really choke off a good
deal of work, if adopted ?—A very large amount of
work.
45149. When a matter comes up for financial reasons,
such as the creation of a Rs. 300 appointment, the
Mr. J. S.
Meeton
6 Apr., 1908.
respect of any one provincial budget ?—As regards
the current year, yes.
45114. Not the current year, but the forthcoming
year ?—No ; they have no information as regards the
requirements of the forthcoming year until the 20th
January, except for a preliminary six months forecast
which is made in December, which is a very rough
thing ; they have no information in detail of what
the Local Government proposes to budget for in the
coming year.
45115. Then I may take it that the Government of
India has no knowledge (except a rough estimate in
December) of the budget of the Local Government for
the forthcoming year until the 20th January?—The
December estimate is a globular estimate for the whole
of India, but for the individual provinces the first
intimation that the Government of India has of
the requirements of any Local Government for the
next year is when it receives the budget notes on the
20th January.
45116. You say here that you cannot receive them
on a later date than the 20th January for the first
time, because it is not until they have come in that the
■estimates of the great spending departments are sub-
mitted to you ?—That is so. It is not a matter that
follows ; it is a coincidence to a certain extent.
45117. When are the estimates of the great spending
departments made up ?—They come to us about the
middle of February.
45118. They do not depend on a fluctuating in-
come ?—The railways fluctuate very seriously, as we
find to our cost sometimes.
45119- Does the Post Office fluctuate?-—No; it is
pretty steady.
45120. Or the Public Works Department ?—No ;
that is more or less in one’s own hands.
45121. The Military Department?—Yes; the ex-
penditure fluctuates there.
45122. Does the ordinary normal expenditure under
military fluctuate ?—The normal expenditure does not
fluctuate, but the special expenditure does.
45123. Does the Marine Department fluctuate?—
No.
45124. Then would it not be possible so far as these
departments are concerned to have their estimates
rather earlier in the year than the middle of February?
—It would be possible, but it would give them a great
deal of inconvenience.
45125. Some of the great spending departments in
the United Kingdom submit their estimates long
/before February ; they submit them in November ?—■
That is so.
45126. Would it not be possible for the great spend-
ing departments in India to submit their estimates of
expenditure, say, in December, and thus enable you to
take the local budgets later and upon a more close
calculation of the knowledge of actuals ?— Of course
the actuals are just as important in the case of railways
as in any other case.
45127. But after all, the surplus actuals of the
Railway Department are of comparatively small
amount ?—They are liable to upset us very largely ;
they did last year.
45128. By about a million and a quarter sterling ?—
They sometimes alter towards the end of the year so
rapidly as to upset all our calculations,
45129. At all events, as regards these other depart-
ments, they could be submitted to you very much
■ earlier ?—I should like to consider that ; I have never
thought about it; I have no doubt it has been con-
sidered frequently, but I am not aware of all the
reasons for fixing the date. The India Office would
also have something to say on the point.
45130. If you could get in these estimates of the
great spending departments earlier, could you, by
means of working them up, postpone the first submis-
sion of provincial estimates to a somewhat later date ?
—I am rather inclined to think that even without that
it would be possible to take the provincial figures
somewhat later, if we dispensed with the somewhat
minute examination which we now give them.
45131. Take the case of Baluchistan again ; it was
said there that Rs. 20 was cut down out of a total
estimate of Rs. 29,390?—I do not think that that was
done by us ; that is done by the Comptroller of India
Treasuries.
45132. Is not that sort of criticism too minute for
the Government of India to indulge in ?—I should
have no objection to dispensing with it.
45133. I understand that if the Government of
India indulged in a somewhat less minute criticism of
details it could take the budgets from the Local Gov-
ernments at a somewhat later date?—I believe it is
possible. Even as it is, the pressure upon us is very
serious ; I am inclined to think personally that we
might scrutinize the local figures a little less studiously,
and perhaps receive them a few days later.
45134. If you got your provincial budgets at a some-
what later date than you do, would you have less
reason to suspect the accuracy of their estimating ?—I
hardly think so ; it would only be a difference between
their having eight months’ actuals to go upon and
having nine months’ actuals ; after all, in many
branches of the administration they are not guided
very much by the actuals of the current year.
45135. You yourselves were upset last year by the
later actuals of the ninth or tenth month of the Rail-
way Department ?—Yes.
45136. Might not the same thing apply to the Local
Government?—Not nearly to the same extent ; their
movements are much more regular.
45137. (Mr. Meyer.) Are not these provincial esti-
mates matters of great importance ?—They are.
45138. They concern your large imperial revenues
in the divided heads ?—They do.
45139. And the imperial surplus is likewise affected
by the actual extent to which the provincial Govern-
ments are either incurring expenditure out of balance
or passing surpluses into balance ?—That is so.
45140. Suppose, as is suggested, you took all these
matters a little later than the 20th J anuary, you would
be very bunched up at the end to get the budget out
before the 20th March ?—Yes, I have said so ; I think
the pressure would be very heavy.
45141. Of course, you have to alter things with
reference to another month’s actuals and so forth, but
the bulk of the criticism of the provincial estimates
takes place on the first edition ? —Yes, that is so.
45142. A question has been put as to the small
amount of time at your disposal for a real scrutiny.
Have you not in each case the notes of the Accountant
General ?—Yes.
45143. You also have two specially trained assistants
in your own office who are used to this budget work ?
—Yes. One of them is the superintendent of the
department, an officer drawing Rs. 500 a month ; the
other is an officer specially deputed during the budget
season from the Enrolled List, probably an officer
drawing Rs. 800 to Rs. 1,000, a trained Accounts
Officer.
45144. Your function as Secretary is really to pass
judgment on opinions, possibly conflicting, that are
put before you ?—Yes, that is so.
45145. How long does it take you, roughly, to deal
with a budget of one of the major provinces ?—In the
first edition I try to give a day to each large budget ;
two small provinces probably come into one day.
45146. Then as to taking the estimates for imperial
heads earlier, you mentioned railways as fluctuating.
Is not customs also a matter to which you have to give
special care ?—It is indeed.
45147. And in which we want really the very last
figures available in order to make a useful guess at
what the customs revenue will be at the end of the
year ?—Yes ; they have to be corrected up to the
eleventh month.
45148. In regard to these proposals of extending
the powers of Local Government in the matter of the
creation of appointments and the enhancement of
salaries to the same extent in provincial matters as the
Government of India now enjoy, thanks to the Secre-
tary of State, will that not really choke off a good
deal of work, if adopted ?—A very large amount of
work.
45149. When a matter comes up for financial reasons,
such as the creation of a Rs. 300 appointment, the
Mr. J. S.
Meeton
6 Apr., 1908.