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146
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Mr. J. S.
Menton.
6 Apr., 1908.
Governments were free to borrow money and went
into the market as well as the Government of India ?
—Yes, I think it would add to the burden on the
country.
45244. Is any action taken to limit that indebted-
ness or to reduce it by a sinking fund as regards the
Government of India ?—There are certain small sink-
ing funds in regard to railways, but, broadly speaking,
the tendency is upwards. There is, however, this very
great feature with regard to Indian indebtedness
which has to be borne in mind, namely, that a con-
stant transfer is taking place between productive and
non-productive debt. The amount of our non-pro-
ductive debt is very rapidly diminishing.
45245. But beyond that the reduction is only very
slight ?—It is not very large ; there are a certain
amount of limited loans which we pay off: now and
again, but no sinking funds on a big scale.
45246. You speak of a small cess levied in Sind
which is not made over to the District Board ; are
you quite clear that it is in addition to the land
revenue, or is it part of it ?—The Bombay Govern-
ment take one view, and the Government of India are
rather disposed to take the other ; it is a matter which
seems to be rather difficult of elucidation, but the
Bombay Government view is, in recent settlements at
any rate, that the cess has been taken out of the land
revenue. The facts are not at all clear as regards the
older settlements, inasmuch as the Government of
India has been given to believe that the cess was
taken over and above the land revenue, and the
question has not been quite settled.
45247. Beyond that, and beyond the Public Works
cess in Bengal, are there any land cesses which are
not made over to District Boards now in India ?—
Yes, but they are very minor ; there is one cess in
Madras. I am not speaking, however, of the rural
police cesses.
> 45248. I am only speaking of land cesses.—Yes,
there is a cess in Madras which is gradually being
abolished, but it cannot be abolished because it has
not been wholly levied yet. Then there are various
small cesses in Northern India such as the headmen
cess and the lambardar cess.
45249. Are they assessed to the land revenue ?—
They are in a fixed ratio to land revenue.
45250. {Mr. Ilichens.') With regard to the delega-
tion of further powers, do I understand generally
your view is that in financial matters in particular you
must have control either from above or from below ?
—Yes, that is so.
45251. And you urge that you must have it from
above, and therefore your opinion is that you have not
got it from below ?—We certainly have not got it
from below at present, in the sense of an electorate.
45252. I do not mean necessarily in the sense of an
electorate, but practically speaking there is no public
opinion which can exercise the necessary control ?—It
does not bear upon matters of that sort to any material
extent.
45253. Supposing the control of the Legislative
Councils, for example, were made wider in the sense of
scrutinizing the budget and discussing it and so forth,
would that modify your view ?—It would certainly
modify the position as regards control.
45254. It would give a more substantial control, and
would therefore justify a still further devolution ?—
Yes, I think so.
45255. Y ou are aware, for example, of the form of
public control that there was in the Transvaal under
the Crown Colony Government ?—Yes.
45256. Supposing the provinces had a control of
that nature, would that, in your opinion, justify the
grant of substantially larger powers?—Yes, I think
undoubtedly it would.
45257. For example, in the case of salaries and in
the case of travelling allowances and various other
regulations that have come up, would you then be
prepared to give Local Governments the powers to
settle these matters themselves on prescribed general
principles ?—Yes, I do not see why we should not, and
I think that is bound to come.
45258. Would you then say it would not be neces-
sary to have a limit for the modification of the salaries
of the subordinate cadre, for example, of the Public
Works?—I am not sure that in many cases the ten-
dency of a more popular Government would not be
towards greater extravagance, especially in regard to
subordinate cadres.
45259. Would you allow them to increase the pay
of the establishment, subject only to the financial
limits imposed upon them by their resources ?—No, I
think I should still have certain general principles,
and maxima laid down, just in the same way as, I
understand, the Local Government Board in England
exercises control over the very independent bodies
which they have to deal with ; I do not know the
limit of that control.
45260. But still you would modify the control very
substantially ?—I would modify it very substantially,
and that will have to come—it is inevitable.
45261. Several witnesses have laid a great deal of
stress upon the uniformity of pay ; for example, some
witnesses have told us that the pay of the subordinate
ranks in the Public Works Department and various
other departments should be uniform throughout the
Indian Empire ; do you agree with that ?—No, I do
not ; I think that the conditions of different provinces
differ so much that the pay must vary.
45262. Apart from the question of control then, you
would not limit the powers of the Local Government
in this respect? —No.
45263. You do not think is it desirable to have
uniformity ?—No. May I explain what I mean.
Uniformity is of very much more importance when
you come to Services, the members of which are liable
to transfer between province and province. Imagine,
say, an engineer who is serving in Northern India
being attracted by the prospects of very much more
pay in Southern India than he is getting, and intrigu-
ing for a transfer.
45264. Do you object to that ?—- Yes, I do rather.
45265. But in South Africa, as you know, there was
no uniformity between the different Colonies, and that
did not lead to any particular disadvantage there.—I
think one Colony very often lost a good man because
they did not pay him enough, whereas here we do not
do that ; what we do is to say that a man of a par-
ticular position and standing shall get a certain pay,
and there is no reason then why he should not do his
work anywhere.
45266. In ordinary business the man who can pay
the best salary gets the best servant.—Yes, but I hope
we shall never have the provinces competing to that
extent.
45267. You think there is a danger of that ?—Yes, I
do think there is a danger of that ; in regard to the
very small subordinate establishments, there is not the
the same danger and therefore there is not the same
objection.
45268. You have said that, in your opinion, the
District Boards require further financial assistance ;
would you say the same thing with regard to muni-
cipalities ?—I think municipalities under stress of very
special circumstances dfeserve the consideration of the
Local Governments, but a municipality has very large
powers of taxation of its own, and until it exercises
them to the full I do not think it has the same claim
upon the general taxpayer that a District Board has.
45269. To-day they get no annual contribution ?—
No.
45270. Do they, as a rule, get any endowment in the
shape of land ?—The Local Government, in certain
provinces with which I am acquainted, has made over
considerable areas of Government land to municipa-
lities, which is probably of great value.
45271. Do you approve of the principle that one
of the best forms of endowment for a municipality is
to give them adjacent land where it is Government
property ?—I am afraid I have never had to consider
it, and I should not like to express an opinion upon
it.
45272. At any rate, you know that that is the prin-
ciple in South Africa, and that when a town is started
it is endowed with public land, and what is called the
unearned increment or improvement which is due to
the rise of the town, is given to the town for its local
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Mr. J. S.
Menton.
6 Apr., 1908.
Governments were free to borrow money and went
into the market as well as the Government of India ?
—Yes, I think it would add to the burden on the
country.
45244. Is any action taken to limit that indebted-
ness or to reduce it by a sinking fund as regards the
Government of India ?—There are certain small sink-
ing funds in regard to railways, but, broadly speaking,
the tendency is upwards. There is, however, this very
great feature with regard to Indian indebtedness
which has to be borne in mind, namely, that a con-
stant transfer is taking place between productive and
non-productive debt. The amount of our non-pro-
ductive debt is very rapidly diminishing.
45245. But beyond that the reduction is only very
slight ?—It is not very large ; there are a certain
amount of limited loans which we pay off: now and
again, but no sinking funds on a big scale.
45246. You speak of a small cess levied in Sind
which is not made over to the District Board ; are
you quite clear that it is in addition to the land
revenue, or is it part of it ?—The Bombay Govern-
ment take one view, and the Government of India are
rather disposed to take the other ; it is a matter which
seems to be rather difficult of elucidation, but the
Bombay Government view is, in recent settlements at
any rate, that the cess has been taken out of the land
revenue. The facts are not at all clear as regards the
older settlements, inasmuch as the Government of
India has been given to believe that the cess was
taken over and above the land revenue, and the
question has not been quite settled.
45247. Beyond that, and beyond the Public Works
cess in Bengal, are there any land cesses which are
not made over to District Boards now in India ?—
Yes, but they are very minor ; there is one cess in
Madras. I am not speaking, however, of the rural
police cesses.
> 45248. I am only speaking of land cesses.—Yes,
there is a cess in Madras which is gradually being
abolished, but it cannot be abolished because it has
not been wholly levied yet. Then there are various
small cesses in Northern India such as the headmen
cess and the lambardar cess.
45249. Are they assessed to the land revenue ?—
They are in a fixed ratio to land revenue.
45250. {Mr. Ilichens.') With regard to the delega-
tion of further powers, do I understand generally
your view is that in financial matters in particular you
must have control either from above or from below ?
—Yes, that is so.
45251. And you urge that you must have it from
above, and therefore your opinion is that you have not
got it from below ?—We certainly have not got it
from below at present, in the sense of an electorate.
45252. I do not mean necessarily in the sense of an
electorate, but practically speaking there is no public
opinion which can exercise the necessary control ?—It
does not bear upon matters of that sort to any material
extent.
45253. Supposing the control of the Legislative
Councils, for example, were made wider in the sense of
scrutinizing the budget and discussing it and so forth,
would that modify your view ?—It would certainly
modify the position as regards control.
45254. It would give a more substantial control, and
would therefore justify a still further devolution ?—
Yes, I think so.
45255. Y ou are aware, for example, of the form of
public control that there was in the Transvaal under
the Crown Colony Government ?—Yes.
45256. Supposing the provinces had a control of
that nature, would that, in your opinion, justify the
grant of substantially larger powers?—Yes, I think
undoubtedly it would.
45257. For example, in the case of salaries and in
the case of travelling allowances and various other
regulations that have come up, would you then be
prepared to give Local Governments the powers to
settle these matters themselves on prescribed general
principles ?—Yes, I do not see why we should not, and
I think that is bound to come.
45258. Would you then say it would not be neces-
sary to have a limit for the modification of the salaries
of the subordinate cadre, for example, of the Public
Works?—I am not sure that in many cases the ten-
dency of a more popular Government would not be
towards greater extravagance, especially in regard to
subordinate cadres.
45259. Would you allow them to increase the pay
of the establishment, subject only to the financial
limits imposed upon them by their resources ?—No, I
think I should still have certain general principles,
and maxima laid down, just in the same way as, I
understand, the Local Government Board in England
exercises control over the very independent bodies
which they have to deal with ; I do not know the
limit of that control.
45260. But still you would modify the control very
substantially ?—I would modify it very substantially,
and that will have to come—it is inevitable.
45261. Several witnesses have laid a great deal of
stress upon the uniformity of pay ; for example, some
witnesses have told us that the pay of the subordinate
ranks in the Public Works Department and various
other departments should be uniform throughout the
Indian Empire ; do you agree with that ?—No, I do
not ; I think that the conditions of different provinces
differ so much that the pay must vary.
45262. Apart from the question of control then, you
would not limit the powers of the Local Government
in this respect? —No.
45263. You do not think is it desirable to have
uniformity ?—No. May I explain what I mean.
Uniformity is of very much more importance when
you come to Services, the members of which are liable
to transfer between province and province. Imagine,
say, an engineer who is serving in Northern India
being attracted by the prospects of very much more
pay in Southern India than he is getting, and intrigu-
ing for a transfer.
45264. Do you object to that ?—- Yes, I do rather.
45265. But in South Africa, as you know, there was
no uniformity between the different Colonies, and that
did not lead to any particular disadvantage there.—I
think one Colony very often lost a good man because
they did not pay him enough, whereas here we do not
do that ; what we do is to say that a man of a par-
ticular position and standing shall get a certain pay,
and there is no reason then why he should not do his
work anywhere.
45266. In ordinary business the man who can pay
the best salary gets the best servant.—Yes, but I hope
we shall never have the provinces competing to that
extent.
45267. You think there is a danger of that ?—Yes, I
do think there is a danger of that ; in regard to the
very small subordinate establishments, there is not the
the same danger and therefore there is not the same
objection.
45268. You have said that, in your opinion, the
District Boards require further financial assistance ;
would you say the same thing with regard to muni-
cipalities ?—I think municipalities under stress of very
special circumstances dfeserve the consideration of the
Local Governments, but a municipality has very large
powers of taxation of its own, and until it exercises
them to the full I do not think it has the same claim
upon the general taxpayer that a District Board has.
45269. To-day they get no annual contribution ?—
No.
45270. Do they, as a rule, get any endowment in the
shape of land ?—The Local Government, in certain
provinces with which I am acquainted, has made over
considerable areas of Government land to municipa-
lities, which is probably of great value.
45271. Do you approve of the principle that one
of the best forms of endowment for a municipality is
to give them adjacent land where it is Government
property ?—I am afraid I have never had to consider
it, and I should not like to express an opinion upon
it.
45272. At any rate, you know that that is the prin-
ciple in South Africa, and that when a town is started
it is endowed with public land, and what is called the
unearned increment or improvement which is due to
the rise of the town, is given to the town for its local