DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0168
Sir Herbert
Risley.
7 Apr., 1908.
162 MINUTES OF
India is the code for European schools. This arose
out of the opinion recorded in September 1901 by a
conference of the Directors of Public Instruction for
Madras, Bombay, Bengal, the United Provinces, the
Punjab and the Centra] Provinces, that it was desirable
that there should be special rules for European educa-
tion, that they should be, as far as possible, uniform
throughout India, that the Bengal code should be
taken as the basis of discussion for a uniform code,
but that before being generally prescribed it should be
revised by a committee of experts representing the
provinces in which the subject is of most importance.
This was accordingly done, and Local Governments
were consulted on the draft. Their replies were duly
considered, and in 1905 the revised code was brought
into effect. The experience since gained tends to
show that uniformity is unattainable in view of the
varying conditions in the several provinces, and Local
Governments have been permitted to modify the code
to suit local circumstances.
45417*. Has the educational policy applied to Burma
been modelled on that of India proper rather than on
the indigenous institutions of the province ?— My
knowledge of Burma is not sufficient to enable me to
answer this question.
45418*. "What are the objections to giving pro-
vincial Governments complete control over the per-
sonnel of their Medical Services and distributing a
proportion of the reserve among them ?—This question
has been exhaustively treated by the Director-General,
Indian Medical Service, in his evidence, which was
written in consultation with me and expresses my
views.
45419*. Would it be advisable to appoint a com-
mittee to consider and report annually upon proposals
for decentralization, as was suggested in the Legislative
Council last year on the occasion of the Budget De-
bate?—If a well designed Delegation Act is passed on
the lines suggested above, I doubt whether there will
be any necessity for a committee of the kind suggested.
Decentralization will then take its place as a normal
process of administration, and will go on regularly as
occasion requires at the instance of the Local Govern-
ments and the Heads of Imperial Departments. Nothing
would be gained by storing up these proposals, most of
them relating to matters of detail, for examination by a
■committee during the cold weather, and in my opinion
it would be better to deal with them in the ordinary
■course of business.
45420. {Mr. Dutt.') You have given us some ex-
tracts from Home Department letters relating to the
appointment of men in the Provincial Services. Do
these rules contemplate that the Provincial Services
should be recruited by the provincial Governments ?—
That is so, certainly.
45421. Should the orders about promotion and
transfer of men in the Provincial Services be passed
by the provincial Governments ; with regard to the
promotion and transfer of people like Deputy Col-
lectors or 4 ssistant Collectors or Assistant Surgeons
should orders be passed by the Local Government ?—
Certainly: I do not see whom else they could go
through.
45422. Not by Heads of Departments or by Com-
missioners of divisions ?—You might possibly allow
transfers within a division to be made by the Com-
missioner.
45423. But all orders for promotion should be
passed by the Local Governments ?—Yes ; it would
be impossible for a Commissioner to deal with pro-
motion on a general list.
45424. Would you favour the idea of a Deputy
Collector being transferred from one place to another
within a division by the Commissioner without
reference to the Secretariat ?—I see no objection to
that.
45425. Is it the fact that sometimes an officer of
the rank of a Deputy Collector is sent to a particular
district or a particular sub-division by the Secretariat
for special reasons, which might conflict with the
views of the Commissioner ? — That would not
happen if he was placed at the disposal of the Com-
missioner for the purposes of the division. It would
involve a change of system. At present the Deputy
Collectors are in direct touch with the Chief Secretary ;
a man comes and says he would like to go to such
EVIDENCE:
and such a sub-division ; he would like, for example,
to be posted at Alipore, because it enables him to
look after the education of his children, or he would
like to be posted to Behar, because it is healthy, and
so on. Under the system that is suggested he would
be posted to the division, and the Commissioner
would determine which districts in the division he
was to go to from time to time.
45426. Do you prefer the system of Deputy
Collectors being posted to divisions, leaving the
Commissioner to post them in one place or another
within rhe division, or do you prefer the present
system ?•—I should prefer the Commissioner system,
because it is within my experience that there are an
enormous number of Deputy Magistrates in Bengal,
and the question of their detailed transfers does
certainly overburden the Secretariat ; there is a great
mass of demi-official correspondence which is not of
very great importance. I believe ample justice would
be done to the Deputy Collectors. Of course there
would be little difficulties with regard to individual
preferences for one district over another, but it could
be arranged that each man had his turn in a good or
healthy district. I should regard that as a more
satisfactory state of things than the present.
45427. You would divide the work between the
Secretariat and the Commissioner ?—They would have
to allot men to the division.
45128. But when a man was transferred from one
division to another, the Secretariat would have to
come in ?—Yes.
45429. You have told us that in regard to Directors
General and Inspectors General, it is necessary that
the Government of India should have expert advisers
of their own ; does that remark apply to all the
Directors General and Inspectors General ?—I think
the Government of India ought to retain all the
Advisory Officers that it has got, so far as the Home
Department, at any rate, is concerned.
45430. You consider that the expert advice of the
Director-General of Education is desirable and abso-
lutely necessary ?—Most desirable ; I think it has
been very useful to Local Governments, and so far
as my information goes, the Local Governments have
found him very satisfactory.
45431. You speak of the functions of the Direc-
tor of Criminal Intelligence ; you tell us that the
main functions of that officer are to collect and
communicate information regarding the special
forms of crime in different provinces. Does that
take up the whole time of an officei- of the rank
and position of the Director-General of Criminal
Intelligence?—It is much more than collecting and
collating, and communicating information ; it
means a great deal of very intricate correspondence.
45432. You think that the work that he has to
do is sufficiently important for an officer of his
position and pay 1—Certainly. I think the appoint-
ment is absolutely indispensable. It is not at all
generally known to what extent crime is spread
over the different provinces of India ; crime in
India is more organised, and reaches further, than
most people believe.
45433. With regard to these experts, the Bombay
Government have objected to their having direct
correspondence with officials under the Local
(Government, and the Madras Government has also
suggested that any correspondence that may be
necessary should be conducted through the Secre-
tariat of the Local Government; what is your
opinion on that subject?—•! quite realise that the
position is a difficult one, and it has been recog-
nised from the first that there is a good deal of
tact and forbearance required to prevent friction
with certain Local Governments. In my opinion,
if the Director of Criminal Intelligence is to get
information in time to be of any use, he must be
allowed to correspond direct with local officers.
But such precautions should be taken in the way
of furnishing copies of correspondence and so on
as may satisfy the Local Government.
45434. So that when he corresponds direct a
copy of the correspondence should be furnished to
the Local Government?—Yes. Suppose a gang of
coiners or forgers operating in several provinces
is being followed up, and the Director-General
Risley.
7 Apr., 1908.
162 MINUTES OF
India is the code for European schools. This arose
out of the opinion recorded in September 1901 by a
conference of the Directors of Public Instruction for
Madras, Bombay, Bengal, the United Provinces, the
Punjab and the Centra] Provinces, that it was desirable
that there should be special rules for European educa-
tion, that they should be, as far as possible, uniform
throughout India, that the Bengal code should be
taken as the basis of discussion for a uniform code,
but that before being generally prescribed it should be
revised by a committee of experts representing the
provinces in which the subject is of most importance.
This was accordingly done, and Local Governments
were consulted on the draft. Their replies were duly
considered, and in 1905 the revised code was brought
into effect. The experience since gained tends to
show that uniformity is unattainable in view of the
varying conditions in the several provinces, and Local
Governments have been permitted to modify the code
to suit local circumstances.
45417*. Has the educational policy applied to Burma
been modelled on that of India proper rather than on
the indigenous institutions of the province ?— My
knowledge of Burma is not sufficient to enable me to
answer this question.
45418*. "What are the objections to giving pro-
vincial Governments complete control over the per-
sonnel of their Medical Services and distributing a
proportion of the reserve among them ?—This question
has been exhaustively treated by the Director-General,
Indian Medical Service, in his evidence, which was
written in consultation with me and expresses my
views.
45419*. Would it be advisable to appoint a com-
mittee to consider and report annually upon proposals
for decentralization, as was suggested in the Legislative
Council last year on the occasion of the Budget De-
bate?—If a well designed Delegation Act is passed on
the lines suggested above, I doubt whether there will
be any necessity for a committee of the kind suggested.
Decentralization will then take its place as a normal
process of administration, and will go on regularly as
occasion requires at the instance of the Local Govern-
ments and the Heads of Imperial Departments. Nothing
would be gained by storing up these proposals, most of
them relating to matters of detail, for examination by a
■committee during the cold weather, and in my opinion
it would be better to deal with them in the ordinary
■course of business.
45420. {Mr. Dutt.') You have given us some ex-
tracts from Home Department letters relating to the
appointment of men in the Provincial Services. Do
these rules contemplate that the Provincial Services
should be recruited by the provincial Governments ?—
That is so, certainly.
45421. Should the orders about promotion and
transfer of men in the Provincial Services be passed
by the provincial Governments ; with regard to the
promotion and transfer of people like Deputy Col-
lectors or 4 ssistant Collectors or Assistant Surgeons
should orders be passed by the Local Government ?—
Certainly: I do not see whom else they could go
through.
45422. Not by Heads of Departments or by Com-
missioners of divisions ?—You might possibly allow
transfers within a division to be made by the Com-
missioner.
45423. But all orders for promotion should be
passed by the Local Governments ?—Yes ; it would
be impossible for a Commissioner to deal with pro-
motion on a general list.
45424. Would you favour the idea of a Deputy
Collector being transferred from one place to another
within a division by the Commissioner without
reference to the Secretariat ?—I see no objection to
that.
45425. Is it the fact that sometimes an officer of
the rank of a Deputy Collector is sent to a particular
district or a particular sub-division by the Secretariat
for special reasons, which might conflict with the
views of the Commissioner ? — That would not
happen if he was placed at the disposal of the Com-
missioner for the purposes of the division. It would
involve a change of system. At present the Deputy
Collectors are in direct touch with the Chief Secretary ;
a man comes and says he would like to go to such
EVIDENCE:
and such a sub-division ; he would like, for example,
to be posted at Alipore, because it enables him to
look after the education of his children, or he would
like to be posted to Behar, because it is healthy, and
so on. Under the system that is suggested he would
be posted to the division, and the Commissioner
would determine which districts in the division he
was to go to from time to time.
45426. Do you prefer the system of Deputy
Collectors being posted to divisions, leaving the
Commissioner to post them in one place or another
within rhe division, or do you prefer the present
system ?•—I should prefer the Commissioner system,
because it is within my experience that there are an
enormous number of Deputy Magistrates in Bengal,
and the question of their detailed transfers does
certainly overburden the Secretariat ; there is a great
mass of demi-official correspondence which is not of
very great importance. I believe ample justice would
be done to the Deputy Collectors. Of course there
would be little difficulties with regard to individual
preferences for one district over another, but it could
be arranged that each man had his turn in a good or
healthy district. I should regard that as a more
satisfactory state of things than the present.
45427. You would divide the work between the
Secretariat and the Commissioner ?—They would have
to allot men to the division.
45128. But when a man was transferred from one
division to another, the Secretariat would have to
come in ?—Yes.
45429. You have told us that in regard to Directors
General and Inspectors General, it is necessary that
the Government of India should have expert advisers
of their own ; does that remark apply to all the
Directors General and Inspectors General ?—I think
the Government of India ought to retain all the
Advisory Officers that it has got, so far as the Home
Department, at any rate, is concerned.
45430. You consider that the expert advice of the
Director-General of Education is desirable and abso-
lutely necessary ?—Most desirable ; I think it has
been very useful to Local Governments, and so far
as my information goes, the Local Governments have
found him very satisfactory.
45431. You speak of the functions of the Direc-
tor of Criminal Intelligence ; you tell us that the
main functions of that officer are to collect and
communicate information regarding the special
forms of crime in different provinces. Does that
take up the whole time of an officei- of the rank
and position of the Director-General of Criminal
Intelligence?—It is much more than collecting and
collating, and communicating information ; it
means a great deal of very intricate correspondence.
45432. You think that the work that he has to
do is sufficiently important for an officer of his
position and pay 1—Certainly. I think the appoint-
ment is absolutely indispensable. It is not at all
generally known to what extent crime is spread
over the different provinces of India ; crime in
India is more organised, and reaches further, than
most people believe.
45433. With regard to these experts, the Bombay
Government have objected to their having direct
correspondence with officials under the Local
(Government, and the Madras Government has also
suggested that any correspondence that may be
necessary should be conducted through the Secre-
tariat of the Local Government; what is your
opinion on that subject?—•! quite realise that the
position is a difficult one, and it has been recog-
nised from the first that there is a good deal of
tact and forbearance required to prevent friction
with certain Local Governments. In my opinion,
if the Director of Criminal Intelligence is to get
information in time to be of any use, he must be
allowed to correspond direct with local officers.
But such precautions should be taken in the way
of furnishing copies of correspondence and so on
as may satisfy the Local Government.
45434. So that when he corresponds direct a
copy of the correspondence should be furnished to
the Local Government?—Yes. Suppose a gang of
coiners or forgers operating in several provinces
is being followed up, and the Director-General