DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0171
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
165
smallest appointment without sanction. Since
then the Government of India has surrendered
many functions, hut each surrender requires a
separate order, since the residuary authority rests
with the Government of India and not with the
.Local Governments, as is the case in most federa-
tions.
45467. I suppose that may be qualified by saying
that there are certain details where uniformity is
■desirable, and that in such cases the Government
of India would not leave the Local Governments
uncontrolled or unfettered 1—Yes ; in such matters
•as travelling allowances, house allowances, and
things of that sort, which are, on the face of
them, mere details, but it has been always held
hitherto that there must foe a certain amount of
uniformity in these matters, otherwise you have
the conditions of service made very uneven as
"between different provinces.
45468. Can one say, generally speaking, that
details are merely the expression of principles ?—•
’They ought to be merely the expression of prin-
ciples, and in so far as the Government of India
passes orders on matters of detail, it proposes and
attempts to do so as the expression of some prin-
•ciple.
45469. Would the policy of the Government of
India come to this, that they lay down general
principles and are prepared to trust the Local
■Governments to give expression to them?—Yes,
that is the theory. It is not so easy to apply
it in practice.
45470. Without interfering in every detail of in-
terpretation, would that be the position ?—That
is the difficulty. But the interference is only
occasional.
45471. You say it is desirable that Local Govern-
ments should be given ample scope as regards
giving effect to the policy, and you say that the
principle itself is subject to certain necessary
limitations. Why do you think that the growing
solidarity of the educated classes throughout
India postulates uniformity of conditions?—Tak-
ing the two provinces of Bengal and Eastern
Bengal and Assam, and their Provincial Service,
that is recruited on the basis of the Calcutta Uni-
versity examinations. They take for their Pro-
vincial Service what corresponds to first class men,
and if the conditions of Service as between those
two provinces differed very materially, if one pro-
vince gave very much higher pay and allowances
and so on than the other, all the best men would
go to one province. That is one of the things
I have in my mind—that where two provinces
recruit their Services from one University, the
conditions offered must be fairly uniform, or not
only will the province suffer, but the class of
people will be discontented ; they will say, “ It is
very unfair that our first class men who go to
Bengal start at so much a month and get up to
so much higher, but if they go to the other pro-
vince they start at so much less and rise to so
much less,” and you will have the same com-
plaint if there is any material difference in the
way of promotion.
45472. As a matter of fact, is it the case that
Provincial Services are usually recruited in the
province itself, or do the provincial Governments
habitually go outside their own province for re-
cruits for the Service 1—They are habitually re-
cruited within the province. In the particular
case I am taking, one University serves two pro-
vinces. The same holds good as between Bombay
and the Central Provinces, and I think you will
find that the Punjab draws men from (both the
Punjab University and Allahabad.
45473. I suppose the same thing might apply,
for example, to the States in America, might
it not; or to the municipal services in England?
There, to some extent, aspirants for Govern-
ment or municipal service go to common schools
or common universities 7—Yes ; but you have not
got to reckon, either in England or in America,
with such a compact literate class as you have
here.
45474. Do you mean the compactness of the
literate class would in fact make them form
Trades Unions?—Yes, At any rate they would
hang together, and so would their newspapers.
45475. Do you think the way to prevent that is
by having uniformity of conditions rather than
allowing each Government to settle matters for
themselves?—I think there must be a reasonable
uniformity of conditions. So far as I remember
the pay of the Provincial Service, as it is at
present, was settled by the Government of India
in 1882 on the general ground that you were
employing people of the same sort of intellectual
calibre, and that you wanted to give them much
the same pay and prospects everywhere.
45476. (Chairman.) You say “ a reasonable uni-
formity,” but is there not an absolute uniformity i
—.No, there is not an absolute uniformity.
45477. (Mr. Hichens.) Do the local conditions
differ very much in the different provinces?—For
instance, Burma is a much more expensive province
than any other.
45478. But apart from that, is there any par-
ticular similarity between Madras and the Punjab,
for example, or between Bombay and Bengal?—
There is a general similarity as regards standard
of living and habits between the literate classes
all over India now, and that similarity is con-
stantly becoming stronger.
45479. Is there more similarity would you say
than there is between Italy and France?—Much
more ; to begin with they have a common lan-
guage which the Italians and Frenchmen have not,
namely English, and that is a great factor.
45480. Is that the essential distinction you draw ?
—You will find at the present moment that the
educated Madrassi and the educated Punjabi are
closer to each other than the Frenchman and the
Italian ; they have in English a common medium
of communication ; they adopt very much the same
sort of standards of living, they have at present
no national rivalries and antagonisms such as
exist between Frenchmen and Italians, their news-
papers run on similar' lines, and in respect of
matters of pay and allowances they certainly will
play each other’s game.
45481. And therefore that is a strong case for
prescribing uniformity? — Yes ; if you do not
prescribe it, you will have it forced upon you.
45482. What is your answer to the question-
“ Would it be administratively desirable to estab-
lish a Council Government in any province other
than Madras and Bombay, and if so of how many
members should each Council consist” ?—<1 am
instructed not to answer that question.
45483. (Chairman.) May I ask by whom you are
so instructed?—By the Viceroy.
45484. By the Government of India or by the
Viceroy ?—I think I may say by the Government
of India.
45485. Were those instructions passed in Council?
—Orders were passed by the Viceroy and circu-
lated.
45486. Orders passed under the hand of the
Viceroy ?—Orders passed under the hand of the
Viceroy.
45487. But not, so far as you know, at a meeting
of a Council of the Government of India?—'Not
formally passed in Council, but circulated to Mem-
bers of Council and concurred in by them.
45488. Are you instructed to offer any opinion
upon it personally?—I am instructed to offer no
opinion upon it personally.
45489. (Mr. Hichens.) I understood that the Sec-
retaries to the Government of India were to give
evidence on questions of fact. Would you be
prepared to answer any question of fact with regard
to this particular question?—I find it extremely
difficult to draw the line between questions of facts
and questions of opinion. My instructions are to
have nothing whatever to do with this question,
and you would place me in a very difficult position
if you pressed me.
45490. (Chairman.) I would like to know whether
the instruction was direct to you or whether you
Sir Herbert
Risley.
7 Apr., 1908.
165
smallest appointment without sanction. Since
then the Government of India has surrendered
many functions, hut each surrender requires a
separate order, since the residuary authority rests
with the Government of India and not with the
.Local Governments, as is the case in most federa-
tions.
45467. I suppose that may be qualified by saying
that there are certain details where uniformity is
■desirable, and that in such cases the Government
of India would not leave the Local Governments
uncontrolled or unfettered 1—Yes ; in such matters
•as travelling allowances, house allowances, and
things of that sort, which are, on the face of
them, mere details, but it has been always held
hitherto that there must foe a certain amount of
uniformity in these matters, otherwise you have
the conditions of service made very uneven as
"between different provinces.
45468. Can one say, generally speaking, that
details are merely the expression of principles ?—•
’They ought to be merely the expression of prin-
ciples, and in so far as the Government of India
passes orders on matters of detail, it proposes and
attempts to do so as the expression of some prin-
•ciple.
45469. Would the policy of the Government of
India come to this, that they lay down general
principles and are prepared to trust the Local
■Governments to give expression to them?—Yes,
that is the theory. It is not so easy to apply
it in practice.
45470. Without interfering in every detail of in-
terpretation, would that be the position ?—That
is the difficulty. But the interference is only
occasional.
45471. You say it is desirable that Local Govern-
ments should be given ample scope as regards
giving effect to the policy, and you say that the
principle itself is subject to certain necessary
limitations. Why do you think that the growing
solidarity of the educated classes throughout
India postulates uniformity of conditions?—Tak-
ing the two provinces of Bengal and Eastern
Bengal and Assam, and their Provincial Service,
that is recruited on the basis of the Calcutta Uni-
versity examinations. They take for their Pro-
vincial Service what corresponds to first class men,
and if the conditions of Service as between those
two provinces differed very materially, if one pro-
vince gave very much higher pay and allowances
and so on than the other, all the best men would
go to one province. That is one of the things
I have in my mind—that where two provinces
recruit their Services from one University, the
conditions offered must be fairly uniform, or not
only will the province suffer, but the class of
people will be discontented ; they will say, “ It is
very unfair that our first class men who go to
Bengal start at so much a month and get up to
so much higher, but if they go to the other pro-
vince they start at so much less and rise to so
much less,” and you will have the same com-
plaint if there is any material difference in the
way of promotion.
45472. As a matter of fact, is it the case that
Provincial Services are usually recruited in the
province itself, or do the provincial Governments
habitually go outside their own province for re-
cruits for the Service 1—They are habitually re-
cruited within the province. In the particular
case I am taking, one University serves two pro-
vinces. The same holds good as between Bombay
and the Central Provinces, and I think you will
find that the Punjab draws men from (both the
Punjab University and Allahabad.
45473. I suppose the same thing might apply,
for example, to the States in America, might
it not; or to the municipal services in England?
There, to some extent, aspirants for Govern-
ment or municipal service go to common schools
or common universities 7—Yes ; but you have not
got to reckon, either in England or in America,
with such a compact literate class as you have
here.
45474. Do you mean the compactness of the
literate class would in fact make them form
Trades Unions?—Yes, At any rate they would
hang together, and so would their newspapers.
45475. Do you think the way to prevent that is
by having uniformity of conditions rather than
allowing each Government to settle matters for
themselves?—I think there must be a reasonable
uniformity of conditions. So far as I remember
the pay of the Provincial Service, as it is at
present, was settled by the Government of India
in 1882 on the general ground that you were
employing people of the same sort of intellectual
calibre, and that you wanted to give them much
the same pay and prospects everywhere.
45476. (Chairman.) You say “ a reasonable uni-
formity,” but is there not an absolute uniformity i
—.No, there is not an absolute uniformity.
45477. (Mr. Hichens.) Do the local conditions
differ very much in the different provinces?—For
instance, Burma is a much more expensive province
than any other.
45478. But apart from that, is there any par-
ticular similarity between Madras and the Punjab,
for example, or between Bombay and Bengal?—
There is a general similarity as regards standard
of living and habits between the literate classes
all over India now, and that similarity is con-
stantly becoming stronger.
45479. Is there more similarity would you say
than there is between Italy and France?—Much
more ; to begin with they have a common lan-
guage which the Italians and Frenchmen have not,
namely English, and that is a great factor.
45480. Is that the essential distinction you draw ?
—You will find at the present moment that the
educated Madrassi and the educated Punjabi are
closer to each other than the Frenchman and the
Italian ; they have in English a common medium
of communication ; they adopt very much the same
sort of standards of living, they have at present
no national rivalries and antagonisms such as
exist between Frenchmen and Italians, their news-
papers run on similar' lines, and in respect of
matters of pay and allowances they certainly will
play each other’s game.
45481. And therefore that is a strong case for
prescribing uniformity? — Yes ; if you do not
prescribe it, you will have it forced upon you.
45482. What is your answer to the question-
“ Would it be administratively desirable to estab-
lish a Council Government in any province other
than Madras and Bombay, and if so of how many
members should each Council consist” ?—<1 am
instructed not to answer that question.
45483. (Chairman.) May I ask by whom you are
so instructed?—By the Viceroy.
45484. By the Government of India or by the
Viceroy ?—I think I may say by the Government
of India.
45485. Were those instructions passed in Council?
—Orders were passed by the Viceroy and circu-
lated.
45486. Orders passed under the hand of the
Viceroy ?—Orders passed under the hand of the
Viceroy.
45487. But not, so far as you know, at a meeting
of a Council of the Government of India?—'Not
formally passed in Council, but circulated to Mem-
bers of Council and concurred in by them.
45488. Are you instructed to offer any opinion
upon it personally?—I am instructed to offer no
opinion upon it personally.
45489. (Mr. Hichens.) I understood that the Sec-
retaries to the Government of India were to give
evidence on questions of fact. Would you be
prepared to answer any question of fact with regard
to this particular question?—I find it extremely
difficult to draw the line between questions of facts
and questions of opinion. My instructions are to
have nothing whatever to do with this question,
and you would place me in a very difficult position
if you pressed me.
45490. (Chairman.) I would like to know whether
the instruction was direct to you or whether you
Sir Herbert
Risley.
7 Apr., 1908.