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https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0187
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
181
and that practically promotion by selection hardly
exists except in regard to the very highest ap-
pointments ?—It certainly exists in the case of
Commissioners, Members of the Board of Revenue,
and Secretaries.
45798. We were told yesterday that, with the
exception of the provinces of Burma and Bengal
the process of selection hardly existed ; would you
agree with that?—I should have said that above
the rank of Collector, appointments were cer-
tainly made by selection.
45799. Am I to understand from the evidence
you have given us in answer to the question
whether the Government should have the power
to retire officers considered unfit for promotion
that the orders of the Secretary of State, and the
recommendations of these Commissions, have not
been observed generally. That I think is the fair
inference—I do not wish to take any strained in-
ference from it—as illustrating the difficulties, not
necessarily the unwillingness, but the difficulties
of proceeding by selection?—-I think selection is a
dead letter as regards District Officers ; I have
known one or two cases of men being passed over,
but it is a long time ago, and they were very gross
cases. There is selection for Commissioners ; in
their case I do not admit that selection is a dead
letter.
45800. Is it necessary, in the case of an officer
who, as I understand, can serve up to 35 years’
service, to provide him upon his return from leave
with a post and a salary commensurate with his
length of service ?—He holds a particular post ;
he is a Collector, let us say, or a Judge ; when he
comes back from leave he is appointed to be a
'Collector or a Judge.
45801. Is it a rule of the Civil Service that when
an officer of long standing—that is, I understand,
anything up to 35 years’ service—returns from
leave there is an obligation on the provincial
Government to provide him with a post and a
salary commensurate with his length of service?—
Yes ; he has under the Civil Service Regulations
a lien on his substantive appointment, or on an
appointment of similar character and pay.
45802. Does the existence of that rule prac-
tically do away with any possibility of proceeding
by selection, or does it militate against the
posting of officers to appointments by selection?—-
In my judgment the rule does not affect selection.
45803. Then what has been the reason why this
rule has, as you told us just now, been practically
a dead letter ?—I think we are rather at cross pur-
poses ; in .the case put by you the officer must,
<kc hypothesi, have been substantively appointed,
by selection or otherwise, before he went on leave.
The fact of his having a lien on his appointment
appears to me irrelevant.
45804. (Mr. Meyer.) You say the 'Commissioner-
ships are generally filled by selection. Do you
mean simply that the senior man is put in—pro-
vided he is not absolutely unfit, in which case he
is passed over—or that they do their best to find
the best man out of half-a-dozen, though there
may be some senior to him who are not absolutely
unfit?—The practice in Bengal, as far as I know,
has been that the senior man, unless he is abso-
lutely unfit, would be given a trial as acting
•Commissioner ; if he was a palpable failure, then
he would be passed over for substantive pro-
motion ; if he was a doubtful case, he might be
■given another trial.
45805. So that the system might be called, selec-
tion by seniority, tempered by rejection of the
unfit?—Just so.
45806. (Chairman.) When the Government of
India sends down to the provincial Government
for members of the Secretariat, is it done through
the Home Department ?—It depends on the de-
partment for which the officer is required ; the
Home Department does not select for other de-
partments.
45807. Each department does it by itself ?—
Yes ; it is usually done by the Viceroy and the
Member in Charge.
45808. Is any care taken either to select, or not
to select, a man who is at the moment in the
/Secretariat of the provincial Government in which
he is serving?—Out of 46 officers selected during
the last ten years, 11 were serving at the time in
the local Secretariat, and 35 elsewhere. It is of
course desirable that a man should have had
some Secretariat experience.
45809. Is not the whole of local self-government
in this country the product of recent years?—Local
Government in the English sense you mean?
45810. Yes ; it has been the creation of the last
30 or 40 years?—'Yes.
45811. (Mr. Dutt.) You have told us that the
Board of Revenue is indispensable in Bengal. Do
you hold the same opinion with regard to Eastern
Bengal and Assam, the population of which is
less than that of Madras?—Certainly. If you
abolished it you would have to strengthen your
Secretariat, and I do not know what you would
do about appeals. It was brought out very
strongly in certain published correspondence that
the people of Eastern Bengal were much attached
to the Board of Revenue and to the system of
hearing appeals.
45812. In Madras they have a Board of Revenue,
but they have not got Commissioners. Do you
think both the Commissioners and the Board of
Revenue indispensable in Eastern Bengal ?—Yes ;
that is my opinion.
45813. With regard to the question about the
creation or the development of self-government in
villages and groups of villages which you quite
approve of, do you think it would be a
good plan to appoint special officers to
foster or create them in advanced villages,
in consultation with the Collectors of the dis-
tricts concerned ?—Certainly. If you are going
to introduce a scheme of that kind, you would
have to pick somebody who was specially qualified
to do it. You would proceed, I suppose, experi-
mentally in one district in the first instance, and
your officer would work in communication with
the Collector. Something of the kind was done
in 'Bengal in connection with panchayats by Mr.
Savage, and afterwards iby Mr. Wheeler.
45814. And it is what is being done now in
regard to Co-operative Credit Societies?—Cer-
tainly ; you want to find somebody who will do
for this kind of organisation what Mr. Gourlay
has done for the Co-operative Credit Societies.
45815. (Mr. Hichens.) Do you attach importance
to a Board of Revenue as opposed to single Com-
missioners ?—As a matter of fact, the Board is
not a Board ; the work of the Board is divided
between the two Members of the Board ; they
only sit together for the purposes- of certain
appeals.
45816. Then, as far as their deliberative func-
tions are concerned, that is a matter of unim-
portance ?—Yes.
45817. You attach no importance to deliberation
by the Board?—No.
45818. Are you satisfied with the existing sources
of revenue of the District Boards ?—No ; certainly
not.
45819. What would you suggest to improve
them?—I would suggest that the whole of the
provincial Public Works Cess should be made over
to the District Boards.
45820. You mean in Bengal, but generally
speaking ?—;I do not remember what cesses other
provinces have to make over.
45821. Would you say that the principle should
be that the District Boards should reap the benefit
of all cesses ?—Certainly the local cesses should
be controlled by the District Board, and ought to
be spent locally.
45822. If that were done, there is no other
amendment that you would suggest with regard to
the financial reorganisation of District Boards?—I
think a cess for light railways would be an excel-
lent thing ; I should be in favour of that.
45823. Over and above the cesses that exist
to-day ?—Yes. The provincial Public Works Cess
in Bengal is now a provincial asset; but I would
make it a local asset.
45824. When you speak of Local Boards, you
mean the Boards subordinate to the District
Sir Herbert
Risley.
7 Apr., 1908.
181
and that practically promotion by selection hardly
exists except in regard to the very highest ap-
pointments ?—It certainly exists in the case of
Commissioners, Members of the Board of Revenue,
and Secretaries.
45798. We were told yesterday that, with the
exception of the provinces of Burma and Bengal
the process of selection hardly existed ; would you
agree with that?—I should have said that above
the rank of Collector, appointments were cer-
tainly made by selection.
45799. Am I to understand from the evidence
you have given us in answer to the question
whether the Government should have the power
to retire officers considered unfit for promotion
that the orders of the Secretary of State, and the
recommendations of these Commissions, have not
been observed generally. That I think is the fair
inference—I do not wish to take any strained in-
ference from it—as illustrating the difficulties, not
necessarily the unwillingness, but the difficulties
of proceeding by selection?—-I think selection is a
dead letter as regards District Officers ; I have
known one or two cases of men being passed over,
but it is a long time ago, and they were very gross
cases. There is selection for Commissioners ; in
their case I do not admit that selection is a dead
letter.
45800. Is it necessary, in the case of an officer
who, as I understand, can serve up to 35 years’
service, to provide him upon his return from leave
with a post and a salary commensurate with his
length of service ?—He holds a particular post ;
he is a Collector, let us say, or a Judge ; when he
comes back from leave he is appointed to be a
'Collector or a Judge.
45801. Is it a rule of the Civil Service that when
an officer of long standing—that is, I understand,
anything up to 35 years’ service—returns from
leave there is an obligation on the provincial
Government to provide him with a post and a
salary commensurate with his length of service?—
Yes ; he has under the Civil Service Regulations
a lien on his substantive appointment, or on an
appointment of similar character and pay.
45802. Does the existence of that rule prac-
tically do away with any possibility of proceeding
by selection, or does it militate against the
posting of officers to appointments by selection?—-
In my judgment the rule does not affect selection.
45803. Then what has been the reason why this
rule has, as you told us just now, been practically
a dead letter ?—I think we are rather at cross pur-
poses ; in .the case put by you the officer must,
<kc hypothesi, have been substantively appointed,
by selection or otherwise, before he went on leave.
The fact of his having a lien on his appointment
appears to me irrelevant.
45804. (Mr. Meyer.) You say the 'Commissioner-
ships are generally filled by selection. Do you
mean simply that the senior man is put in—pro-
vided he is not absolutely unfit, in which case he
is passed over—or that they do their best to find
the best man out of half-a-dozen, though there
may be some senior to him who are not absolutely
unfit?—The practice in Bengal, as far as I know,
has been that the senior man, unless he is abso-
lutely unfit, would be given a trial as acting
•Commissioner ; if he was a palpable failure, then
he would be passed over for substantive pro-
motion ; if he was a doubtful case, he might be
■given another trial.
45805. So that the system might be called, selec-
tion by seniority, tempered by rejection of the
unfit?—Just so.
45806. (Chairman.) When the Government of
India sends down to the provincial Government
for members of the Secretariat, is it done through
the Home Department ?—It depends on the de-
partment for which the officer is required ; the
Home Department does not select for other de-
partments.
45807. Each department does it by itself ?—
Yes ; it is usually done by the Viceroy and the
Member in Charge.
45808. Is any care taken either to select, or not
to select, a man who is at the moment in the
/Secretariat of the provincial Government in which
he is serving?—Out of 46 officers selected during
the last ten years, 11 were serving at the time in
the local Secretariat, and 35 elsewhere. It is of
course desirable that a man should have had
some Secretariat experience.
45809. Is not the whole of local self-government
in this country the product of recent years?—Local
Government in the English sense you mean?
45810. Yes ; it has been the creation of the last
30 or 40 years?—'Yes.
45811. (Mr. Dutt.) You have told us that the
Board of Revenue is indispensable in Bengal. Do
you hold the same opinion with regard to Eastern
Bengal and Assam, the population of which is
less than that of Madras?—Certainly. If you
abolished it you would have to strengthen your
Secretariat, and I do not know what you would
do about appeals. It was brought out very
strongly in certain published correspondence that
the people of Eastern Bengal were much attached
to the Board of Revenue and to the system of
hearing appeals.
45812. In Madras they have a Board of Revenue,
but they have not got Commissioners. Do you
think both the Commissioners and the Board of
Revenue indispensable in Eastern Bengal ?—Yes ;
that is my opinion.
45813. With regard to the question about the
creation or the development of self-government in
villages and groups of villages which you quite
approve of, do you think it would be a
good plan to appoint special officers to
foster or create them in advanced villages,
in consultation with the Collectors of the dis-
tricts concerned ?—Certainly. If you are going
to introduce a scheme of that kind, you would
have to pick somebody who was specially qualified
to do it. You would proceed, I suppose, experi-
mentally in one district in the first instance, and
your officer would work in communication with
the Collector. Something of the kind was done
in 'Bengal in connection with panchayats by Mr.
Savage, and afterwards iby Mr. Wheeler.
45814. And it is what is being done now in
regard to Co-operative Credit Societies?—Cer-
tainly ; you want to find somebody who will do
for this kind of organisation what Mr. Gourlay
has done for the Co-operative Credit Societies.
45815. (Mr. Hichens.) Do you attach importance
to a Board of Revenue as opposed to single Com-
missioners ?—As a matter of fact, the Board is
not a Board ; the work of the Board is divided
between the two Members of the Board ; they
only sit together for the purposes- of certain
appeals.
45816. Then, as far as their deliberative func-
tions are concerned, that is a matter of unim-
portance ?—Yes.
45817. You attach no importance to deliberation
by the Board?—No.
45818. Are you satisfied with the existing sources
of revenue of the District Boards ?—No ; certainly
not.
45819. What would you suggest to improve
them?—I would suggest that the whole of the
provincial Public Works Cess should be made over
to the District Boards.
45820. You mean in Bengal, but generally
speaking ?—;I do not remember what cesses other
provinces have to make over.
45821. Would you say that the principle should
be that the District Boards should reap the benefit
of all cesses ?—Certainly the local cesses should
be controlled by the District Board, and ought to
be spent locally.
45822. If that were done, there is no other
amendment that you would suggest with regard to
the financial reorganisation of District Boards?—I
think a cess for light railways would be an excel-
lent thing ; I should be in favour of that.
45823. Over and above the cesses that exist
to-day ?—Yes. The provincial Public Works Cess
in Bengal is now a provincial asset; but I would
make it a local asset.
45824. When you speak of Local Boards, you
mean the Boards subordinate to the District
Sir Herbert
Risley.
7 Apr., 1908.