DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.45394#0081
Testimony of l. p. di cesnola.
70
I don’t remember.
that
Cal-
and
examined it about two weeks ago and washed it
off? A. Exactly what is there now.
Q. And you knew that before? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it done under your direction?
A. Everything in Central Park is done by my
directions, under the orders of the Trustees.
Q. By your directions do you mean that you
saw everything that was done? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you actually know that this statue was
so done?
A. I know myself that nothing has been done
to it.
Q. Did you know at the time that this work
was done on this statue—did you know it at the
time? A. Not specially.
Q. When did you find it out?
A. When I looked at it.
Q. Do you mean at the time of the visit of
these sculptors; was that the first time you found
out what work had been done on this?
A. Very probably.
Q. Think about it and tell me whether it is not
so, whether the first time that you knew about it
was not two weeks ago, after the plaintiff had
.testified in this Court concerning it?
A. I knew exactly liow it was put together be-
fore; but I never examined this statue until I
heard the other day the accusation that was
brought up against it. And I asked which is No.
6, and I went up and looked at it.
Q. When was that—about two weeks ago?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Before that what did you know about 'the
extent of the work that had been done on this
statue?
A. That portion of the left arm was joined, and
the head.
Q. How do you know that?
A. Because they are detached and broken in
Central Park, just the same as I saw everything
else.
Q. How does Jhis Cypriote stone break, like
marble or plaster?
A. It breaks almost like plaster.
Q. Ragged edges?
A. Yes, sir; pulverized edges, you might say.
Q. It does not usually break in straight cracks?
A. It sometimes does and sometimes not.
Adjourned to Dec. 19, 1883, 10 A.M.
|
sible; there has nothing been put on that statue . has expended $25,000 in excavating, $9,000
except the head and the arm, I believe. ; about in freight, etc., and $2,500 in other charges
Q. How much of that work were you aware and given seven years’ constant labor to the
of, you yourself—before the sculptors went and work on the collection ; he has procured an ad¬
vance to be repaid by the 10tli of December next,
and if not paid by that time lie forfeits the col-
lection at a given sum;” does that refresh your
recollection? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you tell Mr. Blodgett that?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, as to No. 6; I think you said yester-
day that you found what you called a “shake” in
the head—a crack extending from top to bottom?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that a fresh crack?
A. No, sir; it is an old one.
Q. How old?
A. It has always been there since it has been
in New York that I know of.
Q. Did the face once separate from the rest of
the head? A. Never.
Q. Entirely? A. No, sir; never.
Q. Well, has any wash or anything been
applied along the course of the crack?
A. I don’t know. There has been put a piece
of copper in from the back to keep it from open-
ing: that is all—a copper rod in the back.
(2724) Q. Can you point out on the back the
place where the rod enters, or give any indica-
tion of it? A. Yes, sir. (Indicates.)
Q. Where does it come out on the other side?
A. I don’t know; somewhere in the centre of
the figure.
Q. Where?
A. I can’t say from the outside, because it
don’t come out on the outside at all. The rod
does not go through the head.
Q. How do you know that?
A. It keeps the two pieces together.
Q. Did you see the rod put in? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When? A. When it was done.
Q. Well, when was it done?
A. I did not see the thing done. I told him
to keep the pieces from opening and to put
something-
Q. Who? A. The repairer.
Q. Well, then you did not see it actually
done?
A. No, but I gave the instructions to do it.
Q. That I understand. A. As far as I know.
Q. But when you point out here a little dent
in the stone or substance, whatever it is, as being
the place where the rod entered, you don’t know
that from personal observation, do you?
A. You can make a hole and look if you like.
(2725) Q. Well, I don’t like.
A. I give you full permission to do so.
Q. I only want you to say whether when you
put youi- finger in that little depression and said
that is where the rod entered you spoke of it
from actual recollection of its going in there?
Did you or did you not or simply infer it from
the fact of that dent being there?
A. I know its being there; that is all I know.
You can see it if you like.
Q. Well, I do see it; but I want to know
whether you remember that it went in there or
whether it was only your inference or guess that
it went in there? (No response.)
Q. Now, then, if I understood you accurately
yesterday, you said the crack continued down
through the statue-
A. To a certain place; it goes on to a certain
place.
Q. To a certain place? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you call that a continuation of
crack in the head?
A. The sculptors say so and I think so.
Q. What sculptor said so?
A. The sculptor who tested it.
Q. Who was that?
A. Mr. Ward, and several others—Mr.
verly, Mr. Lound Thompson, Mr. Moffat,
somebody else. Everybody agreed to the same
thing that it was a shake.
Q. Well, now what do you say as to this crack
here in the body being a continuation of that
crack in the head?
A. I think that they are right.
New Yoke, December 19, 1883.
Louis P. di Cesnola recalled for further
cross-examination and examined by Mr. Bangs:
(2722) Q. Colonel, is there anything in your
testimony delivered thus far which you now
wish to alter, or change or correct? If so, please
make the correction; I mean anything besides
what you have already corrected?
A. I don’t think substantially anything to
change.
Q. Did you not besides telling Mr. Blodgett that
you had expended $25,000 in excavating, and had
paid or had to pay to the plaintiff about $9,000
for freight, etc., and $2,500 other charges, also
informed Mr. Blodgett that you had procured an
advance from the plaintiff to be repaid about the
10th of December, then next, and if not paid at
that time you forfeited the collection at a given
sum; did you not tell that to Mr. Blodgett?
A. I may have said that; I don’t remember.
Q. Did you not tell him that?
A. ’ ’ '
Q. Well, will looking at the letter refresh your
memory as to whether you told him that or not?
A. Yes, sir; it will.
(2723) Q. Look at the letter (hands witness a
letter); now, will you answer?
A. No, sir; that includes the $9,000.
Q. No, no; did you tell him that?
A. No, sir.
Q. You did not tell him that? A. No, sir.
Q. And the letter don’t refresh your recollec-
tion? A. No, sir.
Q. I ask you if this particular phrase in the
letter refreshes your recollection: “he says he
(2726) Q. Can you tell where this crack in the
body ends by inpection ; will you please trace it
down to its end ?
A. It goes do-wn to the liend.
Q. Down to the hand ?
A. Down to the end; I cannot speak as well
English as you can.
Q. Don’t reflect upon my English; I am a
born New Yorker and of course I cannot speak
English; now, is this the point where it comes
out (indicating) ?
A. I am not certain; it seems so.
Q. I wish you would make yourself as certain
as you can where that crack ends ?
A. I am not able.
Q. It disappears at a certain point, does it ?
A Yes, sir.
Q. Do you see any traces of it on the other
side ? (Looks.)
A. I do not.
Q. Now, Mr. Cesnola, I would like to know
whether from your inspection of that statue in
its present condition there at the right shoulder
that does not look like two pieces of stone put
together; look at the surface of the back piece
that is exposed there opposite the point at which
a fragment is broken from the front piece, and
say whether or not that is the case of a crack or
of the union of two pieces of stone ?
A. Crack.
Q. Quite confident about that?
A. Yes, sir; quite so.
Q. Are you willing to place that in a bath ?
A. They were all put in bath; that was my
instruction.
Q. How ?
A. My instruction was to put them all in a
bath.
(2727) Q. 'Well, did you put that in a bath ?
A. I don’t know.
Q. You don’t know, do you ?
A. Well, I never did it with my own hands;
my men did it.
Q. You never saw that put in a bath ?
A. I did not.
Q. Don’t you think, as it stands now before us
and the jury there, there is some room for ques-
tion as to whether or not that entire back is not
a distinct piece— that is, beginning at the crack
of the neck and following it down as far as you
can; don’t you think, as it stands now, there
is some question about the character of that
statue ?
A. I don’t see any myself; the stone speaks for
itself—the surface of the stone.
Q. Well, tell us what it says if the stone
speaks for itself ; does it say to you that that
smooth surface in the shoulder on the back
piece was or was not originally attached to the
same stone that now appears on the front ?
A. I am thoroughly convinced that it never
has been detached.
Q. Well, what lias kept it together in the face
of that crack ?
A. Well, some sculptor will be able to explain
it; I am not able.
Q. Can’t you ? A. No, sir.
Q, Can’t you tell ? A. No, sir.
Q. Is there nothing about the statue that will
enable you to form a judgment as to what en-
abled those pieces to keep together ?
A. I don’t know anything about it.
(2728) Q. Well, the crack, you say, comes
down here (indicates) and ends at some uncertain
point—the front—and then the breast—there is
a crack certainly between the breast and the back,
isn’t there ?
A. I don’t know how far it goes in.
Q. Will you look at the surface ?
A. I have looked at it.
Q. Well, I want you to look again.
A. I have looked at it enough.
Q. Well, if you have looked enough, tell us
whether there are any traces of glue or plaster or
anything else ?
A. No, sir; I cannot see any.
Q. And you cannot tell what holds that statue
together, can you ?
A. It never has been detached.
70
I don’t remember.
that
Cal-
and
examined it about two weeks ago and washed it
off? A. Exactly what is there now.
Q. And you knew that before? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was it done under your direction?
A. Everything in Central Park is done by my
directions, under the orders of the Trustees.
Q. By your directions do you mean that you
saw everything that was done? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you actually know that this statue was
so done?
A. I know myself that nothing has been done
to it.
Q. Did you know at the time that this work
was done on this statue—did you know it at the
time? A. Not specially.
Q. When did you find it out?
A. When I looked at it.
Q. Do you mean at the time of the visit of
these sculptors; was that the first time you found
out what work had been done on this?
A. Very probably.
Q. Think about it and tell me whether it is not
so, whether the first time that you knew about it
was not two weeks ago, after the plaintiff had
.testified in this Court concerning it?
A. I knew exactly liow it was put together be-
fore; but I never examined this statue until I
heard the other day the accusation that was
brought up against it. And I asked which is No.
6, and I went up and looked at it.
Q. When was that—about two weeks ago?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Before that what did you know about 'the
extent of the work that had been done on this
statue?
A. That portion of the left arm was joined, and
the head.
Q. How do you know that?
A. Because they are detached and broken in
Central Park, just the same as I saw everything
else.
Q. How does Jhis Cypriote stone break, like
marble or plaster?
A. It breaks almost like plaster.
Q. Ragged edges?
A. Yes, sir; pulverized edges, you might say.
Q. It does not usually break in straight cracks?
A. It sometimes does and sometimes not.
Adjourned to Dec. 19, 1883, 10 A.M.
|
sible; there has nothing been put on that statue . has expended $25,000 in excavating, $9,000
except the head and the arm, I believe. ; about in freight, etc., and $2,500 in other charges
Q. How much of that work were you aware and given seven years’ constant labor to the
of, you yourself—before the sculptors went and work on the collection ; he has procured an ad¬
vance to be repaid by the 10tli of December next,
and if not paid by that time lie forfeits the col-
lection at a given sum;” does that refresh your
recollection? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you tell Mr. Blodgett that?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, as to No. 6; I think you said yester-
day that you found what you called a “shake” in
the head—a crack extending from top to bottom?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that a fresh crack?
A. No, sir; it is an old one.
Q. How old?
A. It has always been there since it has been
in New York that I know of.
Q. Did the face once separate from the rest of
the head? A. Never.
Q. Entirely? A. No, sir; never.
Q. Well, has any wash or anything been
applied along the course of the crack?
A. I don’t know. There has been put a piece
of copper in from the back to keep it from open-
ing: that is all—a copper rod in the back.
(2724) Q. Can you point out on the back the
place where the rod enters, or give any indica-
tion of it? A. Yes, sir. (Indicates.)
Q. Where does it come out on the other side?
A. I don’t know; somewhere in the centre of
the figure.
Q. Where?
A. I can’t say from the outside, because it
don’t come out on the outside at all. The rod
does not go through the head.
Q. How do you know that?
A. It keeps the two pieces together.
Q. Did you see the rod put in? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When? A. When it was done.
Q. Well, when was it done?
A. I did not see the thing done. I told him
to keep the pieces from opening and to put
something-
Q. Who? A. The repairer.
Q. Well, then you did not see it actually
done?
A. No, but I gave the instructions to do it.
Q. That I understand. A. As far as I know.
Q. But when you point out here a little dent
in the stone or substance, whatever it is, as being
the place where the rod entered, you don’t know
that from personal observation, do you?
A. You can make a hole and look if you like.
(2725) Q. Well, I don’t like.
A. I give you full permission to do so.
Q. I only want you to say whether when you
put youi- finger in that little depression and said
that is where the rod entered you spoke of it
from actual recollection of its going in there?
Did you or did you not or simply infer it from
the fact of that dent being there?
A. I know its being there; that is all I know.
You can see it if you like.
Q. Well, I do see it; but I want to know
whether you remember that it went in there or
whether it was only your inference or guess that
it went in there? (No response.)
Q. Now, then, if I understood you accurately
yesterday, you said the crack continued down
through the statue-
A. To a certain place; it goes on to a certain
place.
Q. To a certain place? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you call that a continuation of
crack in the head?
A. The sculptors say so and I think so.
Q. What sculptor said so?
A. The sculptor who tested it.
Q. Who was that?
A. Mr. Ward, and several others—Mr.
verly, Mr. Lound Thompson, Mr. Moffat,
somebody else. Everybody agreed to the same
thing that it was a shake.
Q. Well, now what do you say as to this crack
here in the body being a continuation of that
crack in the head?
A. I think that they are right.
New Yoke, December 19, 1883.
Louis P. di Cesnola recalled for further
cross-examination and examined by Mr. Bangs:
(2722) Q. Colonel, is there anything in your
testimony delivered thus far which you now
wish to alter, or change or correct? If so, please
make the correction; I mean anything besides
what you have already corrected?
A. I don’t think substantially anything to
change.
Q. Did you not besides telling Mr. Blodgett that
you had expended $25,000 in excavating, and had
paid or had to pay to the plaintiff about $9,000
for freight, etc., and $2,500 other charges, also
informed Mr. Blodgett that you had procured an
advance from the plaintiff to be repaid about the
10th of December, then next, and if not paid at
that time you forfeited the collection at a given
sum; did you not tell that to Mr. Blodgett?
A. I may have said that; I don’t remember.
Q. Did you not tell him that?
A. ’ ’ '
Q. Well, will looking at the letter refresh your
memory as to whether you told him that or not?
A. Yes, sir; it will.
(2723) Q. Look at the letter (hands witness a
letter); now, will you answer?
A. No, sir; that includes the $9,000.
Q. No, no; did you tell him that?
A. No, sir.
Q. You did not tell him that? A. No, sir.
Q. And the letter don’t refresh your recollec-
tion? A. No, sir.
Q. I ask you if this particular phrase in the
letter refreshes your recollection: “he says he
(2726) Q. Can you tell where this crack in the
body ends by inpection ; will you please trace it
down to its end ?
A. It goes do-wn to the liend.
Q. Down to the hand ?
A. Down to the end; I cannot speak as well
English as you can.
Q. Don’t reflect upon my English; I am a
born New Yorker and of course I cannot speak
English; now, is this the point where it comes
out (indicating) ?
A. I am not certain; it seems so.
Q. I wish you would make yourself as certain
as you can where that crack ends ?
A. I am not able.
Q. It disappears at a certain point, does it ?
A Yes, sir.
Q. Do you see any traces of it on the other
side ? (Looks.)
A. I do not.
Q. Now, Mr. Cesnola, I would like to know
whether from your inspection of that statue in
its present condition there at the right shoulder
that does not look like two pieces of stone put
together; look at the surface of the back piece
that is exposed there opposite the point at which
a fragment is broken from the front piece, and
say whether or not that is the case of a crack or
of the union of two pieces of stone ?
A. Crack.
Q. Quite confident about that?
A. Yes, sir; quite so.
Q. Are you willing to place that in a bath ?
A. They were all put in bath; that was my
instruction.
Q. How ?
A. My instruction was to put them all in a
bath.
(2727) Q. 'Well, did you put that in a bath ?
A. I don’t know.
Q. You don’t know, do you ?
A. Well, I never did it with my own hands;
my men did it.
Q. You never saw that put in a bath ?
A. I did not.
Q. Don’t you think, as it stands now before us
and the jury there, there is some room for ques-
tion as to whether or not that entire back is not
a distinct piece— that is, beginning at the crack
of the neck and following it down as far as you
can; don’t you think, as it stands now, there
is some question about the character of that
statue ?
A. I don’t see any myself; the stone speaks for
itself—the surface of the stone.
Q. Well, tell us what it says if the stone
speaks for itself ; does it say to you that that
smooth surface in the shoulder on the back
piece was or was not originally attached to the
same stone that now appears on the front ?
A. I am thoroughly convinced that it never
has been detached.
Q. Well, what lias kept it together in the face
of that crack ?
A. Well, some sculptor will be able to explain
it; I am not able.
Q. Can’t you ? A. No, sir.
Q, Can’t you tell ? A. No, sir.
Q. Is there nothing about the statue that will
enable you to form a judgment as to what en-
abled those pieces to keep together ?
A. I don’t know anything about it.
(2728) Q. Well, the crack, you say, comes
down here (indicates) and ends at some uncertain
point—the front—and then the breast—there is
a crack certainly between the breast and the back,
isn’t there ?
A. I don’t know how far it goes in.
Q. Will you look at the surface ?
A. I have looked at it.
Q. Well, I want you to look again.
A. I have looked at it enough.
Q. Well, if you have looked enough, tell us
whether there are any traces of glue or plaster or
anything else ?
A. No, sir; I cannot see any.
Q. And you cannot tell what holds that statue
together, can you ?
A. It never has been detached.