DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0024
18
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
The Hon.
Mr. E. A.
Galt.
27 Dec., 1907.
14635. Could not the Commissioner consider those ?
—He could. I think it is better to have a provincial
list. As a matter o£ fact Sub-Deputy Collectors are
posted to divisions.
14636. Does it not result sometimes, in a Sub-
Deputy Collector going from a division where he
knows the language and people to a place where he
does not ?—They are not moved very freely from one
division to another- ; and when they are, it is usually
because of the demands of the Settlement Depart-
ment. The Director of Land Records at the begin-
ning of the cold weather asks for a fresh staff, and a
lot of men may be nominated from one division who
have to be replaced by transfers ; as far as possible,
we try to keep Biharis in Bihar and Bengalis in
Bengal, but we cannot do it altogether.
14637. As the Commissioner has power of allotment
for minor works, would you not go further and give
him a regular little budget, including Public W orks,
which he might sanction ?—We are going oiie step in
that direction this year by increasing the works for
which he can sanction funds up to Rs. 5,000 instead
of Rs. 2,500.
14638. But you only give him Rs. 10,000 in all.
The idea would be to increase his grant very large’y ;
would you be in favour of that ?—I think T should be
in favour of that.
14639. Would you be prepared to give a Com-
missioner more control over the educational work of
his division, with regard to expenditure on schools and
so forth ? With regard to primary education, the
District Board has the control ; with regard to
secondary education, I am rather doubtful ; I think if
the Commissioner had any views on the subject he
would be always listened to by the Director of Public
Instruction.
14640. To put it generally, one view which has been
held is that the Commissioner should be regarded
more as a sub-governor ; does that view recommend
itself to you ?—Yes, it does, but I think in most
matters he has a great deal of control already and a
great deal has been done of late to increase his
powers.
14641. Are there not a great many appeals in regard
to administrative matters to the Board of Revenue ?
—In most cases it is a matter of revision, not an
appeal, when a case gets to the Board of Revenue ;
the Board have power to revise, but they do not exer-
cise it very freely.
14642. The power can be exercised so as to make
it a complete appeal ?—There is no cause of com-
plaint in that respect.
14643. Might it not be possi1 le to limit the pro
cedure in this respect ?—No, I do not think it would ;
I think it might be possible to abolish the Excise Com-
missioner.
14644. At any rate an economy could be effected
somewhere ?—Possibly.
16445. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) Do you think the
function of the Government of India in relation to
Local Governments is simply to settle the principles
and rules of administration and that everything with
regard to particular detail is the work of the Local
Government ?—Yes.
16446. Would you make that an absolute line of
division?—I would lay that down as the principle.
Of course there might be cases where it could not
always be applied in practice, and the Government of
India would have to decide where exceptions should
be made.
14647. Would you advocate a general revision of
the Civil Service Regulations and the Government of
India Codes on that basis ?—I think it would probably
suffice if the latitude which I advocate were given to
the Local Government to make exceptions in certain
cases.
14648. In fact you would bridge the gap by a
system of delegation, subject to the submission of a
return. Would that be sufficient ?—There would then
be two safeguards ; one is that the Accounts Officer,
if he does not think anything reasonable, can insist
on a reference, and the other is the return you
refer to.
14649. But do you think^that would get over the
difficulty of construing the relations between the
Government of India and the Local Government ?—
I should not put much reliance on a periodical state-
ment ; things are very likely to be overlooked, and
unless they were very fully stated, it would be very
difficult for the Government of India to know exactly
what was the case in point. A return, to be of any
use, would take much trouble to prepare.
14650. Supposing a general delegation took place,
would you base it on that principle, namely, that the
functions of the Gove nment of India should be
simply to lay down principles of general policy, and
that all details and particular cases should be left to
be disposed of by a lower authority ?—Yes, I cer-
tainly would.
14651. Taking it broadly, would that be your prin-
ciple, subject to whatever exceptions there might be ?
—Yes, that would be the general principle.
14652. As to the Delegation Act, taking it al-
together, you are in favour of a general Act ?—I am
in favour of a general Act, but I think there ought to
be certain safeguards.
14653. The safeguards are, I take it, preliminary
notification, the sanction of higher authority, and the
power to withdraw ?—Yes.
14654. As regards the sanction of higher authority,
supposing your preliminary notification disclosed
that there was no objection at all, would it be neces-
sary ?■—No. It would only be necessary in cases where
there was a conflict, or where objection had been
raised.
14655. Was it not suggested that it might be
possible to define certain spheres which a general
Delegation Act should not touch ?—Yes, we have
thought it over, and we think there would be great
difficulty about it.
14656. One sphere, for instance, was taxation, which
it has been suggested should be dealt with by specific
legislation ; what do you think about that ?—It is
difficult to lay down rules.
14657. Do you think the other safeguards sufficient ?
I cannot quite say that, but I cannot see any practical
safeguard which one could add.
14658. As to the expert advisers of the Government
of India, whether they are called Inspectors-General
or Directors-General, would you limit them to offer-
ing advice on principles only ?—I see no objection to
their advising on details if the Government of India
pass on that advice simply in the form of comment
which the Local Government may adopt or not.
14659. But if the functions of the Government of
India are confined to principles, what is the object of
their advising on details ?—If the Local Government
send up a scheme which requires the sanction of the
Government of India, the Government of India goes
into it as a whole, and if certain criticisms on minor
points present themselves, which very likely may be
improvements, it is desirable that they should be stated
for the consideration of the Local Government.
14660. They would say : “ Our expert advisers have
noticed these matters of detail which we hope you
will consider ?—Yes.
14661. In certain cases you rather object to the
advice of the Inspector-General being obtained before
the Local Government has expressed its opinion ?—
I would not mind the local officer consulting the
Inspector-General at any stage informally, but I
should object to its being laid down as a rule that
he was to consult him.
14662. Taking the illustration which was given in
Burma of forest working plans, they go from the
Chief Conservator to the Inspector General, and then
to the Local Government which passes final orders.
Do you see anything in that to object to ?■—We have
had one or two cases in which the criticism has been
valueless, perhaps due to ignorance of the local con-
ditions, but I do not object in the ordinary way.
14663. If the Inspector-General’s criticisms pro-
ceeded those of the Local Government would it net
make the former very much more careful how they
dealt with these matters?—I do not think so, and
I think it would tend to makg the correspondence
more cumbrous.
14664. Assuming the procedure that I put to you
were adopted, would it not be possible for the Govern-
ment of India to say to themselves: “Our expert
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
The Hon.
Mr. E. A.
Galt.
27 Dec., 1907.
14635. Could not the Commissioner consider those ?
—He could. I think it is better to have a provincial
list. As a matter o£ fact Sub-Deputy Collectors are
posted to divisions.
14636. Does it not result sometimes, in a Sub-
Deputy Collector going from a division where he
knows the language and people to a place where he
does not ?—They are not moved very freely from one
division to another- ; and when they are, it is usually
because of the demands of the Settlement Depart-
ment. The Director of Land Records at the begin-
ning of the cold weather asks for a fresh staff, and a
lot of men may be nominated from one division who
have to be replaced by transfers ; as far as possible,
we try to keep Biharis in Bihar and Bengalis in
Bengal, but we cannot do it altogether.
14637. As the Commissioner has power of allotment
for minor works, would you not go further and give
him a regular little budget, including Public W orks,
which he might sanction ?—We are going oiie step in
that direction this year by increasing the works for
which he can sanction funds up to Rs. 5,000 instead
of Rs. 2,500.
14638. But you only give him Rs. 10,000 in all.
The idea would be to increase his grant very large’y ;
would you be in favour of that ?—I think T should be
in favour of that.
14639. Would you be prepared to give a Com-
missioner more control over the educational work of
his division, with regard to expenditure on schools and
so forth ? With regard to primary education, the
District Board has the control ; with regard to
secondary education, I am rather doubtful ; I think if
the Commissioner had any views on the subject he
would be always listened to by the Director of Public
Instruction.
14640. To put it generally, one view which has been
held is that the Commissioner should be regarded
more as a sub-governor ; does that view recommend
itself to you ?—Yes, it does, but I think in most
matters he has a great deal of control already and a
great deal has been done of late to increase his
powers.
14641. Are there not a great many appeals in regard
to administrative matters to the Board of Revenue ?
—In most cases it is a matter of revision, not an
appeal, when a case gets to the Board of Revenue ;
the Board have power to revise, but they do not exer-
cise it very freely.
14642. The power can be exercised so as to make
it a complete appeal ?—There is no cause of com-
plaint in that respect.
14643. Might it not be possi1 le to limit the pro
cedure in this respect ?—No, I do not think it would ;
I think it might be possible to abolish the Excise Com-
missioner.
14644. At any rate an economy could be effected
somewhere ?—Possibly.
16445. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) Do you think the
function of the Government of India in relation to
Local Governments is simply to settle the principles
and rules of administration and that everything with
regard to particular detail is the work of the Local
Government ?—Yes.
16446. Would you make that an absolute line of
division?—I would lay that down as the principle.
Of course there might be cases where it could not
always be applied in practice, and the Government of
India would have to decide where exceptions should
be made.
14647. Would you advocate a general revision of
the Civil Service Regulations and the Government of
India Codes on that basis ?—I think it would probably
suffice if the latitude which I advocate were given to
the Local Government to make exceptions in certain
cases.
14648. In fact you would bridge the gap by a
system of delegation, subject to the submission of a
return. Would that be sufficient ?—There would then
be two safeguards ; one is that the Accounts Officer,
if he does not think anything reasonable, can insist
on a reference, and the other is the return you
refer to.
14649. But do you think^that would get over the
difficulty of construing the relations between the
Government of India and the Local Government ?—
I should not put much reliance on a periodical state-
ment ; things are very likely to be overlooked, and
unless they were very fully stated, it would be very
difficult for the Government of India to know exactly
what was the case in point. A return, to be of any
use, would take much trouble to prepare.
14650. Supposing a general delegation took place,
would you base it on that principle, namely, that the
functions of the Gove nment of India should be
simply to lay down principles of general policy, and
that all details and particular cases should be left to
be disposed of by a lower authority ?—Yes, I cer-
tainly would.
14651. Taking it broadly, would that be your prin-
ciple, subject to whatever exceptions there might be ?
—Yes, that would be the general principle.
14652. As to the Delegation Act, taking it al-
together, you are in favour of a general Act ?—I am
in favour of a general Act, but I think there ought to
be certain safeguards.
14653. The safeguards are, I take it, preliminary
notification, the sanction of higher authority, and the
power to withdraw ?—Yes.
14654. As regards the sanction of higher authority,
supposing your preliminary notification disclosed
that there was no objection at all, would it be neces-
sary ?■—No. It would only be necessary in cases where
there was a conflict, or where objection had been
raised.
14655. Was it not suggested that it might be
possible to define certain spheres which a general
Delegation Act should not touch ?—Yes, we have
thought it over, and we think there would be great
difficulty about it.
14656. One sphere, for instance, was taxation, which
it has been suggested should be dealt with by specific
legislation ; what do you think about that ?—It is
difficult to lay down rules.
14657. Do you think the other safeguards sufficient ?
I cannot quite say that, but I cannot see any practical
safeguard which one could add.
14658. As to the expert advisers of the Government
of India, whether they are called Inspectors-General
or Directors-General, would you limit them to offer-
ing advice on principles only ?—I see no objection to
their advising on details if the Government of India
pass on that advice simply in the form of comment
which the Local Government may adopt or not.
14659. But if the functions of the Government of
India are confined to principles, what is the object of
their advising on details ?—If the Local Government
send up a scheme which requires the sanction of the
Government of India, the Government of India goes
into it as a whole, and if certain criticisms on minor
points present themselves, which very likely may be
improvements, it is desirable that they should be stated
for the consideration of the Local Government.
14660. They would say : “ Our expert advisers have
noticed these matters of detail which we hope you
will consider ?—Yes.
14661. In certain cases you rather object to the
advice of the Inspector-General being obtained before
the Local Government has expressed its opinion ?—
I would not mind the local officer consulting the
Inspector-General at any stage informally, but I
should object to its being laid down as a rule that
he was to consult him.
14662. Taking the illustration which was given in
Burma of forest working plans, they go from the
Chief Conservator to the Inspector General, and then
to the Local Government which passes final orders.
Do you see anything in that to object to ?■—We have
had one or two cases in which the criticism has been
valueless, perhaps due to ignorance of the local con-
ditions, but I do not object in the ordinary way.
14663. If the Inspector-General’s criticisms pro-
ceeded those of the Local Government would it net
make the former very much more careful how they
dealt with these matters?—I do not think so, and
I think it would tend to makg the correspondence
more cumbrous.
14664. Assuming the procedure that I put to you
were adopted, would it not be possible for the Govern-
ment of India to say to themselves: “Our expert