DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0056
50
MINUTES OF- EVIDENCE:
. , • other places to make the settlement; they go out
Jlad/msudan anj ^|le ail(j tpe Collector and Commissioner
are not consulted at all.
28 Dec., 1907, 15501. Would you like to see the settlement of a
- district conducted, not by a special Settlement Officer,
but by the Commissioner or Collector ?—It might be
conducted by a Settlement Officer, but he should be
subordinate to the Commissioner and Collector.
15502. Are Settlement Officers independent now ?—
Yes, they are ; they are directly under the Govern-
ment, and the Land Records Department is a Secre-
tariat of the Government.
15503. You say that the powers of the Collector
are not properly exercised ? In what particular
direction?—For instance, the Collector has several
departments under him (about 20), and each depart-
ment is entrusted to one of his Deputy Collectors.
These departments in the majority of cases are really
administered by the Deputy in charge, but whenever
there is any complaint or an appeal from an' order
passed by the Deputy Collector to the Collector,
instead of taking it up himself, the Collector generally
sends for a note from the man who made the mistake
or error, and the head clerk brings the record and
places it before him. That is really not exercising
the power of a Collector, because it is the head clerk
who has made the mistake, or who did the wrong
thing, and he is allowed to deal with the papers.
15504. Do you mean that the Collector- should do
that work himself and not by a Deputy?—Yes ; the
Collector does not see complaints and other things
himself. In the case of a petition being sent in, a
note is made in English ; that note goes to the
Collector, and he passes an order without ever seeing
the people.
15505. How long ought a Collector to remain in his
district ?—I do not think there ought to be any limit
of time, unless his removal be necessary on the ground
that he is not doing his duty.
15506. It has been suggested by other witnesses
that a Collector should be kept at least three years in
a district ; would you think that term too short ?—
Less than three years, I suppose, would not enable
him to know a district, and would not give him an
opportunity of doing his duty.
15507. Do you think a man ought to be removed
from a district at the end of five years’ service ?—Not
if he were doing his work well.
15508. Might further powers reasonably be given
to municipalities ?—There are certain minor munici-
palities in sub-divisions where larger powers, altogether
independent of supervision, might not be desirable,
but in the towns, of course, municipalities can be run
■on self-governing lines.
15509. Ought the District Boards to have larger
powers, or are their powers sufficient ? —Perhaps
District Boards should have larger powers. When I
was Vice-Chairman of a District Board the Chairman
delegated all his powers to me, and never attended a
meeting until he was ordered to explain why he did
not, so that I think the powers might be delegated by
the Chairman. The Collector might retain his power
of supervision.
15510. Might larger powers be given to village
communities in matters connected with criminal or
civil jurisdiction ?—For some time there have been
orders that no case where the value of the property
does not exceed one rupee should be actually enquired
into or sent up. Now there is an order that thefts
below the sum of five rupees should not be taken
cognizance of, so that there are now little things
which can be disposed of by the village people very
well ; for instance, it might not be desirable to punish
an offender really according to the criminal law, and
offences might perhaps be checked more effectively if
dealt with out of Court. There are many little cases
of theft, especially on the part of children, which are
made too much of, and small criminal powers might
be entrusted to the village communities.
15511. {Mr. Dutt.) In Orissa some of the estates
are permanetly settled, but most of the estates are
temporarily settled, and I understand they are under-
going a sort of revisional settlement just now ?—Yes.
15512. Was the last settlement made ten years ago ?
—Yes.
15513. Are the mistakes made at the last settlement
to some extent being rectified now ?—No, not at all ;
no doubt that is the object, but it is not being done.
I say it is not being done because it is not being done
legally. The other day there was a judicial pronounce-
ment, that the whole proceedings were illegal, and on
examination the Settlement Officer had to admit that
they had not followed the law.
15514. With regard to the suggestion that the
District Board should have a non-official Chairman,
while official interference should be withdrawn, do
you not think that the District Officer Ought to
have some means of checking their proceedings ?—
Certainly.
15515. Not necessarily by interfering, but that there
should be some power of control and supervision ?—
Certainly ; and not only that, but if the District
Boards do not exercise their powers properly, they
should pay forfeit.
15516. Then you think that Collectors should have
power under the law to make them do their duty?
—Yes.
15517. Are you in favour of Advisory and Ad-
ministrative Councils in every district ?—I would
advise an Advisory Council.
15518. Do you mean that a number of leading
men should be made members of the Council, and
that the Collector should take their advice on all
important questions ?—Yes, and not only take their
advice in that way, but that he should take their
written opinions.
15519. Suppose the Collector differed from them,
would you give him power to act on his own re-
sponsibility ?—Certainly I would give the Collector
power to act on his own responsibility, but I would
also give the Advisory Council, supposing two-thirds
of them differed from the Collector, power to forward
their opinions to Government.
15520. Would you recommend an Advisory Council
for the Commissioner on the same principle ?—Yes.
15521. Generally do you recommend that the
powers now exercised by the Lieutenant-Governor
should devolve on the Commissioner of Orissa ?—Not
all the powers, but some of the powers—where the
exercise of powers by the Lieutenant - Governor
actually does injury to Orissa is on account of the
seeking for uniformity with other divisions of Bengal,
without taking into consideration the peculiar features
of Orissa. Generally, circumstances are different in
Orissa, and consequently it is necessary that there
should be a man on the spo' to decide what Acts of
Bengal should be extended to Orissa, and the power
of extending or withdrawing such Acts ought to be
vested in the Commissioner of Orissa.
15522. Should the application of any new Act to
Orissa be left with the Commissioner and not with the
Lieutenant-Governor ?•—Quite so.
15523. With regard to granting powers to village
communities to deal wi*h petty criminal and civil
cases, are not the present village communities in
Orissa only the chaukidari unions constituted for the
purpose of the chaukidari tax ? —Yes, but there are
still in Orissa villages with what I may call communal
life, out of which could be developed a panchayat
system, and by panchayat I do not mean one person
who is called a panchayat, but I mean what the word
literally means—five people forming a body with
certain powers.
15524. Would you like the panchayats to be formed
on a better basis and composed of better men, and
that enlarged powers should then be granted to them ?
—Yes.
15525. In that way could they do a great deal of
useful work which would be appreciated by the
people ?—Yes.
15526. {Sir Frederic Lely.) Does Orissa differ from
Bengal in language and customs?—Yes.
15527. Is it a popular place to live in—do English-
men like to live there ?—Many retired Englishmen
have stayed there, and it is considered a healthy part,
15528. Has it happened, within your experience,
that officers have been transferred from Bengal for a
year or two to Orissa and then transferred back again ?
—Yes.
MINUTES OF- EVIDENCE:
. , • other places to make the settlement; they go out
Jlad/msudan anj ^|le ail(j tpe Collector and Commissioner
are not consulted at all.
28 Dec., 1907, 15501. Would you like to see the settlement of a
- district conducted, not by a special Settlement Officer,
but by the Commissioner or Collector ?—It might be
conducted by a Settlement Officer, but he should be
subordinate to the Commissioner and Collector.
15502. Are Settlement Officers independent now ?—
Yes, they are ; they are directly under the Govern-
ment, and the Land Records Department is a Secre-
tariat of the Government.
15503. You say that the powers of the Collector
are not properly exercised ? In what particular
direction?—For instance, the Collector has several
departments under him (about 20), and each depart-
ment is entrusted to one of his Deputy Collectors.
These departments in the majority of cases are really
administered by the Deputy in charge, but whenever
there is any complaint or an appeal from an' order
passed by the Deputy Collector to the Collector,
instead of taking it up himself, the Collector generally
sends for a note from the man who made the mistake
or error, and the head clerk brings the record and
places it before him. That is really not exercising
the power of a Collector, because it is the head clerk
who has made the mistake, or who did the wrong
thing, and he is allowed to deal with the papers.
15504. Do you mean that the Collector- should do
that work himself and not by a Deputy?—Yes ; the
Collector does not see complaints and other things
himself. In the case of a petition being sent in, a
note is made in English ; that note goes to the
Collector, and he passes an order without ever seeing
the people.
15505. How long ought a Collector to remain in his
district ?—I do not think there ought to be any limit
of time, unless his removal be necessary on the ground
that he is not doing his duty.
15506. It has been suggested by other witnesses
that a Collector should be kept at least three years in
a district ; would you think that term too short ?—
Less than three years, I suppose, would not enable
him to know a district, and would not give him an
opportunity of doing his duty.
15507. Do you think a man ought to be removed
from a district at the end of five years’ service ?—Not
if he were doing his work well.
15508. Might further powers reasonably be given
to municipalities ?—There are certain minor munici-
palities in sub-divisions where larger powers, altogether
independent of supervision, might not be desirable,
but in the towns, of course, municipalities can be run
■on self-governing lines.
15509. Ought the District Boards to have larger
powers, or are their powers sufficient ? —Perhaps
District Boards should have larger powers. When I
was Vice-Chairman of a District Board the Chairman
delegated all his powers to me, and never attended a
meeting until he was ordered to explain why he did
not, so that I think the powers might be delegated by
the Chairman. The Collector might retain his power
of supervision.
15510. Might larger powers be given to village
communities in matters connected with criminal or
civil jurisdiction ?—For some time there have been
orders that no case where the value of the property
does not exceed one rupee should be actually enquired
into or sent up. Now there is an order that thefts
below the sum of five rupees should not be taken
cognizance of, so that there are now little things
which can be disposed of by the village people very
well ; for instance, it might not be desirable to punish
an offender really according to the criminal law, and
offences might perhaps be checked more effectively if
dealt with out of Court. There are many little cases
of theft, especially on the part of children, which are
made too much of, and small criminal powers might
be entrusted to the village communities.
15511. {Mr. Dutt.) In Orissa some of the estates
are permanetly settled, but most of the estates are
temporarily settled, and I understand they are under-
going a sort of revisional settlement just now ?—Yes.
15512. Was the last settlement made ten years ago ?
—Yes.
15513. Are the mistakes made at the last settlement
to some extent being rectified now ?—No, not at all ;
no doubt that is the object, but it is not being done.
I say it is not being done because it is not being done
legally. The other day there was a judicial pronounce-
ment, that the whole proceedings were illegal, and on
examination the Settlement Officer had to admit that
they had not followed the law.
15514. With regard to the suggestion that the
District Board should have a non-official Chairman,
while official interference should be withdrawn, do
you not think that the District Officer Ought to
have some means of checking their proceedings ?—
Certainly.
15515. Not necessarily by interfering, but that there
should be some power of control and supervision ?—
Certainly ; and not only that, but if the District
Boards do not exercise their powers properly, they
should pay forfeit.
15516. Then you think that Collectors should have
power under the law to make them do their duty?
—Yes.
15517. Are you in favour of Advisory and Ad-
ministrative Councils in every district ?—I would
advise an Advisory Council.
15518. Do you mean that a number of leading
men should be made members of the Council, and
that the Collector should take their advice on all
important questions ?—Yes, and not only take their
advice in that way, but that he should take their
written opinions.
15519. Suppose the Collector differed from them,
would you give him power to act on his own re-
sponsibility ?—Certainly I would give the Collector
power to act on his own responsibility, but I would
also give the Advisory Council, supposing two-thirds
of them differed from the Collector, power to forward
their opinions to Government.
15520. Would you recommend an Advisory Council
for the Commissioner on the same principle ?—Yes.
15521. Generally do you recommend that the
powers now exercised by the Lieutenant-Governor
should devolve on the Commissioner of Orissa ?—Not
all the powers, but some of the powers—where the
exercise of powers by the Lieutenant - Governor
actually does injury to Orissa is on account of the
seeking for uniformity with other divisions of Bengal,
without taking into consideration the peculiar features
of Orissa. Generally, circumstances are different in
Orissa, and consequently it is necessary that there
should be a man on the spo' to decide what Acts of
Bengal should be extended to Orissa, and the power
of extending or withdrawing such Acts ought to be
vested in the Commissioner of Orissa.
15522. Should the application of any new Act to
Orissa be left with the Commissioner and not with the
Lieutenant-Governor ?•—Quite so.
15523. With regard to granting powers to village
communities to deal wi*h petty criminal and civil
cases, are not the present village communities in
Orissa only the chaukidari unions constituted for the
purpose of the chaukidari tax ? —Yes, but there are
still in Orissa villages with what I may call communal
life, out of which could be developed a panchayat
system, and by panchayat I do not mean one person
who is called a panchayat, but I mean what the word
literally means—five people forming a body with
certain powers.
15524. Would you like the panchayats to be formed
on a better basis and composed of better men, and
that enlarged powers should then be granted to them ?
—Yes.
15525. In that way could they do a great deal of
useful work which would be appreciated by the
people ?—Yes.
15526. {Sir Frederic Lely.) Does Orissa differ from
Bengal in language and customs?—Yes.
15527. Is it a popular place to live in—do English-
men like to live there ?—Many retired Englishmen
have stayed there, and it is considered a healthy part,
15528. Has it happened, within your experience,
that officers have been transferred from Bengal for a
year or two to Orissa and then transferred back again ?
—Yes.