DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0059
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
53
28 Dec., 1907.
Mr. H. R.
Irwin.
not think it could be established in the villages ;
practically the villages are the tea plantations ; there
are no villages besides. ,
15602. What is your suggestion for the remedying
of this particular evil ?—I believe in certain parts of
India there is a law by which the intervention of
pleaders is forbidden in these cases, so that a man
might have some chance of arguing his case direct
before the Magistrate without having a lot of legal
talent arrayed against him.
15603. Does a Magistrate always hear a case in the
village in which the suitors reside ?—No, never.
15604. Is it possible to institute a judicial Court
which could hear a suit on the spot?—It would
certainly be difficult, but it would be a great advan-
tage if it were possible, and a Magistrate would
certainly learn much more if he tried a case on the
spot.
15605. Do you know whether the defendants and
plaintiffs in these petty cases have often to travel with
their witnesses long distances to get their cases tried ?
—Yes.
15606. (Sir Frederic Lely.') With reference to the
Sara railway bridge, is your contention that the
Government of India ought to have the power to
step in and settle the dispute between the two Com-
panies ?—Yes, I think so.
15607. Has the Civil Procedure Code been intro-
duced into the Darjeeling district?.—Yes:
15608. (dfr. Dutt.) Do you consider that to be pre-
mature ?—I think so.
15609. Is not Darjeeling a non-regulation district to
some extent ?—I think it is.
15610. There are very few villages in Darjeeling,
and the population is very sparse and scattered ?—
The whole of the inhabitants are practically confined
to the tea plantations ; there are very few villages.
15611. Could you suggest any way by which the
people could be saved taking these long journeys to
get their civil or criminal cases heard or any legal
organisation which would deal out justice to them in
small matters ?—If it was possible—-whether it is or
not I cannot say—for a Magistrate to hear cases when
touring through the district on the spot, I think it
certainly would be a great advantage.
15612. (Jfr. Hichens.) How long does it take a
young officer to learn the language of a district—two
years ?—Yes, a man can learn it quite well in two
years provided he is forced to.
15613. When officers are posted to the Darjeeling
district have they every opportunity of acquiring it ?
—Yes, except, of course, that there is a very great
deal of work to do, and they have very little leisure in
consequence.
15614. You doubtless know a good many young
officers who have been out about two years. Do they
acquire a fair knowledge of the language after that
time ?—Very few of them stay two years in a district,
I think.
15615. It has been represented to the Commission
that a Collector should remain from three to five
years in a district, but not longer on the ground that
he might get into bad ways, or get lazy ; would you
endorse that opinion ?—I think two years is too short
a time : in the Darjeeling district it used to be five
years, but for some time now it has been reduced to
two. Of course Darjeeling being a Hill station it is
a natural sanatorium, and men are sent there very
often for the benefit of their health. I think the
longer a Collector is in a district, the better, generally
speaking.
15616. Would you say that what is of essential
importance is that a man of the rank of Collector
should be well known and trusted and respected in a
district ?—Yes, certainly.
15617. Would you say that the question of transfers
to which you allude is one of the most important of
all ?—Yes.
15618. And that possibly considerable sacrifices,
even in efficiency, ought to be made in order to secure
that a man remained a long time in his district ?—
Yes.
15619. (Mr. Meyer.) Is not the rule with regard to
limiting the tenure of office of a Deputy Commissioner
such pressure for party purposes might be effectual,
and it is a disgrace that the pressing needs of a great
country should be subject to it.
There is no doubt that debt lies at the root of
quite half the crime and distress which exist through-
out India, and this is very largely due to the facilities
which exist of borrowing money and the exorbitant
rates of interest charged upon loans. This is intensified
amongst the semi-barbarous, ignorant inhabitants of a
district like Darjeeling. They willingly pledge them-
selves to pay any exorbitant rate of interest demanded
of them by money-lenders, and when eventually, bled
to the last farthing they possess, they are sued ino court
for the amount, they have not the means to employ
pleaders to defend their cause, and being absolutely
ignorant themselves how to proceed, they do not
appear and the suit is decreed against them, and they
become virtually enslaved to their creditors for the
rest of their existence. This constitutes a very grave
evil and has been brought to the notice of Govern-
ment by the Association which I represent, on several
occasions, but no solution of the difficulty has yet
been attempted. The remedy seems to lie in some
rough and ready system, by which a pauper can obtain
justice, instead of the present slow and expensive
method, which virtually debars him from defending a
suit brought against him and places him at the mercy
of his wealthy creditors. I believe a law exists in
parts of India, which forbids the intervention of
pleaders in certain cases, and if this could be extended
so that paupers might have some chance of obtaining
justice in the Law Courts, it would be an untold boon
to thousands.
15590. Have you been some time in the country ?—
I have been over 30 years in the country. I live in
the Darjeeling district.
15591. What is the size of that district ?—Roughly
speaking, I should think it was 400 square miles.
15592. The Deputy Commissioner has been re-
moved, you say, no less than five times during the last
21 months ?—Yes, that is to say that other officers
have acted for him—I do not mean to say that a new
Deputy Commissioner has been appointed five times.
15593. Do you say that in the Darjeeling district
the District Officer as a rule is unacquainted with the
vernacular ?■—Yes, I think so, certainly.
15594. Very much less so than many other Euro-
peans in the district are ?—Very much less so than
the planters, because our work is entirely connected
with the natives, and we know a good deal more than
the man coming for two years, who naturally cannot
pick up the language in the same way as a man who
resides amongst the people and whose work is with
them.
15595. Is there more than one vernacular spoken
in your district ?—It is principally one vernacular.
15596. You wish to draw attention to the case of
the Sara bridge, and you represent that the non-
erection of. the bridge, which is of importance to
your locality, is due to the undue centralization of
power in the Secretary of State ?—It is.
15597. Are you aware that the real difficulties in
the case are not due to centralization, but to the
quarrels of the Railway Companies as to the exact
location of the bridge ?—No, I understood that it
was recommended both by the Viceroy and the
Government of Bengal, but that it was barred by the
Secretary of State.
15598. Will you take it from me that it is entirely
due to the disputes of the Railway Companies as to
the exact location of the bridge ?—Certainly I will, if
you tell me so.
15599. And that it depends entirely upon which is
to capture the traffic ?—But why should the two
railways have that power ?
15600. With regard to appeals, do you suggest that
there are too many appeals ?—The inhabitants are so
absolutely ignorant of the procedure of the Law
Courts, and have not the means to employ pleaders
and lawyers to argue for them, that the consequence
is that when they get into debt to a money lender he
can frighten them almost into doing anything ; they
are afraid to go int?> Court, and so they go to the
wall.
15601. Would the remedy for that be the establish-
ment of some judicial authority in the villages ?—I do
53
28 Dec., 1907.
Mr. H. R.
Irwin.
not think it could be established in the villages ;
practically the villages are the tea plantations ; there
are no villages besides. ,
15602. What is your suggestion for the remedying
of this particular evil ?—I believe in certain parts of
India there is a law by which the intervention of
pleaders is forbidden in these cases, so that a man
might have some chance of arguing his case direct
before the Magistrate without having a lot of legal
talent arrayed against him.
15603. Does a Magistrate always hear a case in the
village in which the suitors reside ?—No, never.
15604. Is it possible to institute a judicial Court
which could hear a suit on the spot?—It would
certainly be difficult, but it would be a great advan-
tage if it were possible, and a Magistrate would
certainly learn much more if he tried a case on the
spot.
15605. Do you know whether the defendants and
plaintiffs in these petty cases have often to travel with
their witnesses long distances to get their cases tried ?
—Yes.
15606. (Sir Frederic Lely.') With reference to the
Sara railway bridge, is your contention that the
Government of India ought to have the power to
step in and settle the dispute between the two Com-
panies ?—Yes, I think so.
15607. Has the Civil Procedure Code been intro-
duced into the Darjeeling district?.—Yes:
15608. (dfr. Dutt.) Do you consider that to be pre-
mature ?—I think so.
15609. Is not Darjeeling a non-regulation district to
some extent ?—I think it is.
15610. There are very few villages in Darjeeling,
and the population is very sparse and scattered ?—
The whole of the inhabitants are practically confined
to the tea plantations ; there are very few villages.
15611. Could you suggest any way by which the
people could be saved taking these long journeys to
get their civil or criminal cases heard or any legal
organisation which would deal out justice to them in
small matters ?—If it was possible—-whether it is or
not I cannot say—for a Magistrate to hear cases when
touring through the district on the spot, I think it
certainly would be a great advantage.
15612. (Jfr. Hichens.) How long does it take a
young officer to learn the language of a district—two
years ?—Yes, a man can learn it quite well in two
years provided he is forced to.
15613. When officers are posted to the Darjeeling
district have they every opportunity of acquiring it ?
—Yes, except, of course, that there is a very great
deal of work to do, and they have very little leisure in
consequence.
15614. You doubtless know a good many young
officers who have been out about two years. Do they
acquire a fair knowledge of the language after that
time ?—Very few of them stay two years in a district,
I think.
15615. It has been represented to the Commission
that a Collector should remain from three to five
years in a district, but not longer on the ground that
he might get into bad ways, or get lazy ; would you
endorse that opinion ?—I think two years is too short
a time : in the Darjeeling district it used to be five
years, but for some time now it has been reduced to
two. Of course Darjeeling being a Hill station it is
a natural sanatorium, and men are sent there very
often for the benefit of their health. I think the
longer a Collector is in a district, the better, generally
speaking.
15616. Would you say that what is of essential
importance is that a man of the rank of Collector
should be well known and trusted and respected in a
district ?—Yes, certainly.
15617. Would you say that the question of transfers
to which you allude is one of the most important of
all ?—Yes.
15618. And that possibly considerable sacrifices,
even in efficiency, ought to be made in order to secure
that a man remained a long time in his district ?—
Yes.
15619. (Mr. Meyer.) Is not the rule with regard to
limiting the tenure of office of a Deputy Commissioner
such pressure for party purposes might be effectual,
and it is a disgrace that the pressing needs of a great
country should be subject to it.
There is no doubt that debt lies at the root of
quite half the crime and distress which exist through-
out India, and this is very largely due to the facilities
which exist of borrowing money and the exorbitant
rates of interest charged upon loans. This is intensified
amongst the semi-barbarous, ignorant inhabitants of a
district like Darjeeling. They willingly pledge them-
selves to pay any exorbitant rate of interest demanded
of them by money-lenders, and when eventually, bled
to the last farthing they possess, they are sued ino court
for the amount, they have not the means to employ
pleaders to defend their cause, and being absolutely
ignorant themselves how to proceed, they do not
appear and the suit is decreed against them, and they
become virtually enslaved to their creditors for the
rest of their existence. This constitutes a very grave
evil and has been brought to the notice of Govern-
ment by the Association which I represent, on several
occasions, but no solution of the difficulty has yet
been attempted. The remedy seems to lie in some
rough and ready system, by which a pauper can obtain
justice, instead of the present slow and expensive
method, which virtually debars him from defending a
suit brought against him and places him at the mercy
of his wealthy creditors. I believe a law exists in
parts of India, which forbids the intervention of
pleaders in certain cases, and if this could be extended
so that paupers might have some chance of obtaining
justice in the Law Courts, it would be an untold boon
to thousands.
15590. Have you been some time in the country ?—
I have been over 30 years in the country. I live in
the Darjeeling district.
15591. What is the size of that district ?—Roughly
speaking, I should think it was 400 square miles.
15592. The Deputy Commissioner has been re-
moved, you say, no less than five times during the last
21 months ?—Yes, that is to say that other officers
have acted for him—I do not mean to say that a new
Deputy Commissioner has been appointed five times.
15593. Do you say that in the Darjeeling district
the District Officer as a rule is unacquainted with the
vernacular ?■—Yes, I think so, certainly.
15594. Very much less so than many other Euro-
peans in the district are ?—Very much less so than
the planters, because our work is entirely connected
with the natives, and we know a good deal more than
the man coming for two years, who naturally cannot
pick up the language in the same way as a man who
resides amongst the people and whose work is with
them.
15595. Is there more than one vernacular spoken
in your district ?—It is principally one vernacular.
15596. You wish to draw attention to the case of
the Sara bridge, and you represent that the non-
erection of. the bridge, which is of importance to
your locality, is due to the undue centralization of
power in the Secretary of State ?—It is.
15597. Are you aware that the real difficulties in
the case are not due to centralization, but to the
quarrels of the Railway Companies as to the exact
location of the bridge ?—No, I understood that it
was recommended both by the Viceroy and the
Government of Bengal, but that it was barred by the
Secretary of State.
15598. Will you take it from me that it is entirely
due to the disputes of the Railway Companies as to
the exact location of the bridge ?—Certainly I will, if
you tell me so.
15599. And that it depends entirely upon which is
to capture the traffic ?—But why should the two
railways have that power ?
15600. With regard to appeals, do you suggest that
there are too many appeals ?—The inhabitants are so
absolutely ignorant of the procedure of the Law
Courts, and have not the means to employ pleaders
and lawyers to argue for them, that the consequence
is that when they get into debt to a money lender he
can frighten them almost into doing anything ; they
are afraid to go int?> Court, and so they go to the
wall.
15601. Would the remedy for that be the establish-
ment of some judicial authority in the villages ?—I do