DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0089
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
83
readily to their courts, or would you have them
concentrated at headquarters as they are now ?—I
have not been able to give that matter much
consideration.
16431. Purnea is in Bihar. Have you real villages
in Bihar ?—Yes.
16432. Could you work on the natural village
system instead of on an artificial grouping like
chaukidari unions ?— Chaukidari unions already exist
in the district.
16433. But that is an artificial grouping more or
less ?—Yes.
16434. Supposing you wanted to develop village
government, would it not be better to go on the
natural village lines than on the lines of this artificial
community ?—I think it would.
16435. You speak about the power of municipalities
to grant leave, pensions and so forth. Are there not
general rules on the subject and within those rules
the Chairman can grant leave and pensions?—Yes.
But it requires the sanction of the Government in
several matters.
16436. Is it not necessary, supposing the Chairman
proposes to take long leave, that the Collector or
Commissioner should be informed of the fact?—
Certainly ; all I object to is that it should go right up
to the Government.
16437. Might not the Commissioner also have
some other powers which the Government now
exercise vested in him with regard to the control of
municipalities ?—Yes.
16438. For instance, might he not appoint the
nominated members ?—Yes.
16439. Would you make the Commissioner the local
representative of Government ?—Yes.
16440. Have municipalities less power than District
Boards in the matter of administration ?—I think so.
16441. Does a municipality simply pay for its
schools while the Education Department manages
them, whereas a District Board has the management
of its primary schools ?—Yes, in a way. The manage-
ment, however, depends on certain fixed rules of
Government even in the case of District Boards.
16442. But, subject to those rules, a District Board
can open or close a school, and raise the pay of any
teachers which a municipality cannot do ?—Yes, the
sub-inspectors or deputy inspectors send in reports to
the municipalities, and the municipalities have to act
upon them more or less. I know of an instance where
my municipality wanted to act somewhat contrary to
the report of. the sub-inspector, but the Education
Department intervened and the municipality had to
give way.
16443. How does the Education Department inter-
vene—what is the procedure?—The inspector of
schools writes to the Magistrate : A copy of the letter
is forwarded to the Municipal Commissioners and
discussed ; they send their reply ; but the result is
that the opinion of the inspector of schools is upheld.
31 Dec., 1907.
Babu
Jogendra:
Nath
Mukherjee.
16449. In regard to the grant of larger powers to
District Boards and municipalities, might that be
facilitated by having a different system of election, and
by having representatives of various classes and grades
in the community, instead of representation by local
areas as at present ?—No, I do not think that would
work. I prefer the local area system because I think
the best men would thus be brought out.
16450. Does the present system afford a complete
safeguard to the minority ?—Yes, I think it does.
16451. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) In all questions
where the Government officer has to judge of the
mistakes of subordinates, has he not to be very careful
to maintain a reputation for impartiality ?—Generally,
of course, that is the case.
16452. You instance that sort of question as one on
which a Collector was rather loath to talk at large.
Do you not think that if he did talk at large, it would
be a very dangerous thing ?—From a certain point of
view, and having regard to the kind of question which
might be put, it might be so on occasions.
16453. And the officer whose conduct was under
enquiry might feel himself seriously prejudiced?—
Certainly.
16454. Are not these personal questions in a district
extremely interesting to everybody ?—They are bound
to be more or less.
16455. You said that you found officials would not
discuss certain important subjects, and amongst others
you mentioned the conduct of police officers—could
they discuss that properly?—Generally they might,
without any imputation against any particular officer.
16456. What is the size of the Purnea municipality?
-—It is scattered, but it has a population of about
sixteen thousand. Its revenue is about Rs. 26,000.
16457. Has the growth in Local Self-Government
within your experience been as much as might have
been reasonably expected?—I am not satisfied certainly
with the present state of things, but there has been a
marked improvement, and people have been taking
more interest in public matters recently.
16458. Do you think you could go quicker ?—I do
not think so, until the class which holds aloof comes
forward, and participates more in public affairs.
16459. Some witnesses have suggested to us that
there is a certain lack of continuity in the policy of
the Local Government—do you share that opinion at
all?—Yes. The only remedy I can think of is that
the policy should be laid down in black and white with
regard to any definite scheme to be developed, and that
successive Governments might then go on with such a
scheme.
16460. You do not think any alteration in the con-
stitution of the Local Government could be made
which would meet the difficulty?—Do I understand
you to mean the Legislative Council.
16461. An Executive Council?—I have not thought
about it.
16444. Supposing a case occurred in which the
Municipal Commissioners did not agree with the
inspector of schools, but held to their previous reso-
lution, would the Divisional Commissioner have power
to make you conform to the view of the inspector of
schools?—I do not think the Commissioner has any
direct power, but he has the right to sanction or
disallow the budget.
16445. He might put pressure on you through the
budget ?—Or by some other means which I cannot at
present think of.
16446. When the budget comes up before the Com-
missioner, do the Educational and Medical people
make remarks upon it ?—As a rule they do not do so
at the time of the preparation of the budget, until
they are consulted as to their requirements. Those
are considered by the Budget Committee of the
Municipal Council.
16447. But do they also write to the Commissioner
and say : “ We think this allotment is satisfactory or
unsatisfactory”? I do not know whether they do so,
or if they do it through the Magistrate or directly.
16448. If the departmental people write to the
Commissioner about your allotments, do you not know
what happens ?—No.
16462. Is the municipality represented on the
Dispensary Committee ?—Yes.
16463. And is the only contributor ?—It is the main
contributor.
16464. Does it furnish the largest number of
members ?—Yes, but there is no fixed rule. We have
a full representation on the Committee.
16465. Is there any educational sub-committee of the
District Board?—I think there is, but I am not a
member of the District Board.
16466. You say that you have no voice in the
management of primary schools. Is that only in
the case of grant in aid schools, to which the Govern
ment give a settled grant ?—Yes, but also in the case
of schools within the municipality maintained solely
by it, with the help derived from school fees.
16467. If you liked to start schools quite indepen-
dently of the rules with your own money, could you
do so ?—I think the department would have to be
consulted.
16468. Surely anyone in Purnea could start a private
school ?—Yes.
16469. Is not the municipality in the same position?
Is it not only because you want a grant-in-aid that you
33263
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83
readily to their courts, or would you have them
concentrated at headquarters as they are now ?—I
have not been able to give that matter much
consideration.
16431. Purnea is in Bihar. Have you real villages
in Bihar ?—Yes.
16432. Could you work on the natural village
system instead of on an artificial grouping like
chaukidari unions ?— Chaukidari unions already exist
in the district.
16433. But that is an artificial grouping more or
less ?—Yes.
16434. Supposing you wanted to develop village
government, would it not be better to go on the
natural village lines than on the lines of this artificial
community ?—I think it would.
16435. You speak about the power of municipalities
to grant leave, pensions and so forth. Are there not
general rules on the subject and within those rules
the Chairman can grant leave and pensions?—Yes.
But it requires the sanction of the Government in
several matters.
16436. Is it not necessary, supposing the Chairman
proposes to take long leave, that the Collector or
Commissioner should be informed of the fact?—
Certainly ; all I object to is that it should go right up
to the Government.
16437. Might not the Commissioner also have
some other powers which the Government now
exercise vested in him with regard to the control of
municipalities ?—Yes.
16438. For instance, might he not appoint the
nominated members ?—Yes.
16439. Would you make the Commissioner the local
representative of Government ?—Yes.
16440. Have municipalities less power than District
Boards in the matter of administration ?—I think so.
16441. Does a municipality simply pay for its
schools while the Education Department manages
them, whereas a District Board has the management
of its primary schools ?—Yes, in a way. The manage-
ment, however, depends on certain fixed rules of
Government even in the case of District Boards.
16442. But, subject to those rules, a District Board
can open or close a school, and raise the pay of any
teachers which a municipality cannot do ?—Yes, the
sub-inspectors or deputy inspectors send in reports to
the municipalities, and the municipalities have to act
upon them more or less. I know of an instance where
my municipality wanted to act somewhat contrary to
the report of. the sub-inspector, but the Education
Department intervened and the municipality had to
give way.
16443. How does the Education Department inter-
vene—what is the procedure?—The inspector of
schools writes to the Magistrate : A copy of the letter
is forwarded to the Municipal Commissioners and
discussed ; they send their reply ; but the result is
that the opinion of the inspector of schools is upheld.
31 Dec., 1907.
Babu
Jogendra:
Nath
Mukherjee.
16449. In regard to the grant of larger powers to
District Boards and municipalities, might that be
facilitated by having a different system of election, and
by having representatives of various classes and grades
in the community, instead of representation by local
areas as at present ?—No, I do not think that would
work. I prefer the local area system because I think
the best men would thus be brought out.
16450. Does the present system afford a complete
safeguard to the minority ?—Yes, I think it does.
16451. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) In all questions
where the Government officer has to judge of the
mistakes of subordinates, has he not to be very careful
to maintain a reputation for impartiality ?—Generally,
of course, that is the case.
16452. You instance that sort of question as one on
which a Collector was rather loath to talk at large.
Do you not think that if he did talk at large, it would
be a very dangerous thing ?—From a certain point of
view, and having regard to the kind of question which
might be put, it might be so on occasions.
16453. And the officer whose conduct was under
enquiry might feel himself seriously prejudiced?—
Certainly.
16454. Are not these personal questions in a district
extremely interesting to everybody ?—They are bound
to be more or less.
16455. You said that you found officials would not
discuss certain important subjects, and amongst others
you mentioned the conduct of police officers—could
they discuss that properly?—Generally they might,
without any imputation against any particular officer.
16456. What is the size of the Purnea municipality?
-—It is scattered, but it has a population of about
sixteen thousand. Its revenue is about Rs. 26,000.
16457. Has the growth in Local Self-Government
within your experience been as much as might have
been reasonably expected?—I am not satisfied certainly
with the present state of things, but there has been a
marked improvement, and people have been taking
more interest in public matters recently.
16458. Do you think you could go quicker ?—I do
not think so, until the class which holds aloof comes
forward, and participates more in public affairs.
16459. Some witnesses have suggested to us that
there is a certain lack of continuity in the policy of
the Local Government—do you share that opinion at
all?—Yes. The only remedy I can think of is that
the policy should be laid down in black and white with
regard to any definite scheme to be developed, and that
successive Governments might then go on with such a
scheme.
16460. You do not think any alteration in the con-
stitution of the Local Government could be made
which would meet the difficulty?—Do I understand
you to mean the Legislative Council.
16461. An Executive Council?—I have not thought
about it.
16444. Supposing a case occurred in which the
Municipal Commissioners did not agree with the
inspector of schools, but held to their previous reso-
lution, would the Divisional Commissioner have power
to make you conform to the view of the inspector of
schools?—I do not think the Commissioner has any
direct power, but he has the right to sanction or
disallow the budget.
16445. He might put pressure on you through the
budget ?—Or by some other means which I cannot at
present think of.
16446. When the budget comes up before the Com-
missioner, do the Educational and Medical people
make remarks upon it ?—As a rule they do not do so
at the time of the preparation of the budget, until
they are consulted as to their requirements. Those
are considered by the Budget Committee of the
Municipal Council.
16447. But do they also write to the Commissioner
and say : “ We think this allotment is satisfactory or
unsatisfactory”? I do not know whether they do so,
or if they do it through the Magistrate or directly.
16448. If the departmental people write to the
Commissioner about your allotments, do you not know
what happens ?—No.
16462. Is the municipality represented on the
Dispensary Committee ?—Yes.
16463. And is the only contributor ?—It is the main
contributor.
16464. Does it furnish the largest number of
members ?—Yes, but there is no fixed rule. We have
a full representation on the Committee.
16465. Is there any educational sub-committee of the
District Board?—I think there is, but I am not a
member of the District Board.
16466. You say that you have no voice in the
management of primary schools. Is that only in
the case of grant in aid schools, to which the Govern
ment give a settled grant ?—Yes, but also in the case
of schools within the municipality maintained solely
by it, with the help derived from school fees.
16467. If you liked to start schools quite indepen-
dently of the rules with your own money, could you
do so ?—I think the department would have to be
consulted.
16468. Surely anyone in Purnea could start a private
school ?—Yes.
16469. Is not the municipality in the same position?
Is it not only because you want a grant-in-aid that you
33263
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