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https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0095
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
89
laboriously worked up in the Director’s office, it is
then presented in the form of a letter addressed to the
Secretary. That is in the first place noted on by a
subordinate clerk ; his remarks are generally not, of
course, of very much value. Then it goes up to the
Under-Secretary, who writes a full note on the subject,
and then it finally reaches the Secretary.
16539. What service has the Under-Secretary ?—
Usually about five or six years’ service.
16540. Would he have any technical knowledge as
a rule ?—No.
16541. Therefore, from your point of view, it would
be more advantageous and more simple, if, jitter a
verbal discussion with the Director of Public Instruc-
tion, the scheme went up straight to the Secretary to
Governnment ?—Yes ; that is, it should go up direct
to the Secretary, and not be noted on by any sub-
ordinate officers, in the first place.
16542. Subordinate and, in your judgment, ignorant
officers ?—Yes ; from the technical point of view, of
course.
16543. And if such an informal conference between
the Head of the Education Department and the Secre-
tary to Government were not only encouraged but
insisted on, would that remove your desire to see the
Head of the Department a Joint-Secretary?—Not
entirely ; not only that would have to be insisted on,
but also the point you yourself mention, namely, that
proposals should go direct to the Secretary.
16544. At all events, if there was such a conference
between the officials, a great deal of labour might be
saved ?—Yes ; that would be one great advantage.
16545. Where is the office of the Director of Public
Instruction ?—It is in the same building as the Bengal
Secretariat. The Director’s and the Secretary’s offices
are not far apart.
16546. The Director of Public Instruction states
that the system of work in his own office is utterly
dispiriting ; what is the system.of work there?—The
dispiriting factor arose from the difficulty which the
Director had in getting his projects through; I did not
understand that he referred to the work in his own
office, because, if he has any objection to the procedure
in his own office, he has the ultimate voice in the
matter, and can reform it.
16547. Does the Education Department feel that
in regard to any attempt to carry out the policy of
the Government of India, there is too great a restric-
tion upon it in matters of detail ?—Yes.
16548. Are those details insisted upon by the Local
Government or by the Government of India ?—I take
it, by the Government of India. Of course, this is
a complaint made by the Local Government itself,
and only indirectly by the Director of Public Instruc-
tion.
16549. Has there been any desire on the part of the
Government of India to interfere in educational
details ?—I have only been here since the 19th
December, but one thing has come to my notice in
connection with the transfer of the Engineering Col-
lege from Sibpur to Ranchi. A letter had been ad-
dressed to the Local Government which filtered down
to the office of the Director of Public Instruction in
which certain suggestions were made, which, I con-
sider, dealt with matters of detail, and which ought to
have been left to the discretion of the Local Govern-
ment acting on the advice of its advisers.
16550. What have you to do with the Engineering
College ?—It is an educational institution, and all
educational institutions, with the exception perhaps
of Medical Institutions, come under the Education
Department.
16551. Can you recollect the details in which the
Government interfered?—There was a question of
having a common play-ground, upon which the Local
Government was perfectly capable of arriving at a
decision. The Local Government does not object in the
slightest degree to suggestions coming from the Govern-
ment of India, but delay arises from their being expected
to defend their position, and to send in a report to the
Government of India. There would be no harm if
the Government of India were to say : “We suggest
that such and such a thing should be done upon
matters of detail; will you take them into your con-
sideration ? ” but they should leave the Local Govern-
ment to exercise their discretion, which, I consider,
they are perfectly capable of doing. Great delay is
caused from the fact that the Local Government has
to send in a report to the Government of India, and
in order to send in that report, it has first of all to
come to the Director, and he has to work up a case in
support of the position which he has taken in the
matter.
Mr. G. W.
Kiichler.
31 Dec., 1907.
16552. Do you have to answer the criticisms of the
Government of India paragraph by paragraph ?—-Yes,
and we have to make out a ease.
16553. You would prefer broad principles to be
laid down by the Government of India, and, inside
those principles, great latitude to be left ?—Yes.
16554. Does the Director-General of Education inter-
fere in your department?—He does not interfere
directly, but in connection with the point I have just
raised, there might be a good deal of undue inter-
ference. He of course advises the Home Secretary to
the Government of India, and then the Home Sec-
retary, acting on the advice he has got, sends these
letters to the Local Government, so that though the
Director has no direct power, he has a good deal of in-
direct power, and I should imagine since the office of
the Director-General of Education has been instituted,
that there has been a good deal more interference in
matters of detail in purely educational matters with
the Local Governments than there was before.
16555. You have never been in the Secretariat of
the Education Department ?—No.
16556. So that you have no special experience, either
one way or the other, of whether there was, or was
not, interference ?—Except in one or two cases, which
have been put before me, and Mr. Earle has shown me
one or two cases in which there has been undue inter-
ference. One case I might cite was in connection with
the organization of European education here. The
last letter that came from the Government of India
went into very great detail with regard to purely
educational matters. The Government of Bengal has
its educational advisers, who are quite competent to
advise them on all these points, and, of course, it is not
a question of the Government of India merely giving'
the advice ; it is a question of their expecting an
elaborate report in reply to their suggestions.
16557. Is the organization of European education to
which you refer, confined only to the province of
Bengal ?—No ; it is a scheme which affects the whole
of India. There must be a certain amount of co-
ordination in respect of education, but within the
limits of that co-ordination, a certain amount of lati-
tude should be left to the Local Governments each to
work out its own scheme.
16558. Can you give any other instances of detail with
regard to education in which the Government of India
have unduly interfered?—Yes; they went very fully
into the curricula of study, and into the question of
the syllabus and the method of awarding scholarships ;
also into the method by which the schools should be
inspected. The Government of Bengal had put forward
certain proposals- with regard to a system of inspection
of schools, and that system was taken exception to by
the Government of India ; they said that, unless the
case was put more clearly, they would not be able to
give their sanction.
16559. With regard to the curricula or the method
of inspection, is there any reason why the procedure in
Bengal should differ from the procedure in the United
Provinces ?—There might be some local conditions
which might give rise to a difference, but apart from
that, the Local Government ought to have a little
initiative. We ought not to have an absolutely stereo-
typed system throughout the whole of India.
16560. One can understand that in different pro-
vinces, with different races and different languages and
so forth, they might require different treatment; but
in the case of European education, would not the con-
ditions of European education be very much the same
in all the provinces ?—They would, at any rate in the
north of India.
16561. Would it not be desirable to standardize that
education in the case of Europeans ?—The powers the
Local Government proposed to exercise were very
small; it was merely a question whether manual and
scientific education should both be made compulsory.
16562. Might not a general principle be involved in
that ?—There is something to be said from that point
33263
M
89
laboriously worked up in the Director’s office, it is
then presented in the form of a letter addressed to the
Secretary. That is in the first place noted on by a
subordinate clerk ; his remarks are generally not, of
course, of very much value. Then it goes up to the
Under-Secretary, who writes a full note on the subject,
and then it finally reaches the Secretary.
16539. What service has the Under-Secretary ?—
Usually about five or six years’ service.
16540. Would he have any technical knowledge as
a rule ?—No.
16541. Therefore, from your point of view, it would
be more advantageous and more simple, if, jitter a
verbal discussion with the Director of Public Instruc-
tion, the scheme went up straight to the Secretary to
Governnment ?—Yes ; that is, it should go up direct
to the Secretary, and not be noted on by any sub-
ordinate officers, in the first place.
16542. Subordinate and, in your judgment, ignorant
officers ?—Yes ; from the technical point of view, of
course.
16543. And if such an informal conference between
the Head of the Education Department and the Secre-
tary to Government were not only encouraged but
insisted on, would that remove your desire to see the
Head of the Department a Joint-Secretary?—Not
entirely ; not only that would have to be insisted on,
but also the point you yourself mention, namely, that
proposals should go direct to the Secretary.
16544. At all events, if there was such a conference
between the officials, a great deal of labour might be
saved ?—Yes ; that would be one great advantage.
16545. Where is the office of the Director of Public
Instruction ?—It is in the same building as the Bengal
Secretariat. The Director’s and the Secretary’s offices
are not far apart.
16546. The Director of Public Instruction states
that the system of work in his own office is utterly
dispiriting ; what is the system.of work there?—The
dispiriting factor arose from the difficulty which the
Director had in getting his projects through; I did not
understand that he referred to the work in his own
office, because, if he has any objection to the procedure
in his own office, he has the ultimate voice in the
matter, and can reform it.
16547. Does the Education Department feel that
in regard to any attempt to carry out the policy of
the Government of India, there is too great a restric-
tion upon it in matters of detail ?—Yes.
16548. Are those details insisted upon by the Local
Government or by the Government of India ?—I take
it, by the Government of India. Of course, this is
a complaint made by the Local Government itself,
and only indirectly by the Director of Public Instruc-
tion.
16549. Has there been any desire on the part of the
Government of India to interfere in educational
details ?—I have only been here since the 19th
December, but one thing has come to my notice in
connection with the transfer of the Engineering Col-
lege from Sibpur to Ranchi. A letter had been ad-
dressed to the Local Government which filtered down
to the office of the Director of Public Instruction in
which certain suggestions were made, which, I con-
sider, dealt with matters of detail, and which ought to
have been left to the discretion of the Local Govern-
ment acting on the advice of its advisers.
16550. What have you to do with the Engineering
College ?—It is an educational institution, and all
educational institutions, with the exception perhaps
of Medical Institutions, come under the Education
Department.
16551. Can you recollect the details in which the
Government interfered?—There was a question of
having a common play-ground, upon which the Local
Government was perfectly capable of arriving at a
decision. The Local Government does not object in the
slightest degree to suggestions coming from the Govern-
ment of India, but delay arises from their being expected
to defend their position, and to send in a report to the
Government of India. There would be no harm if
the Government of India were to say : “We suggest
that such and such a thing should be done upon
matters of detail; will you take them into your con-
sideration ? ” but they should leave the Local Govern-
ment to exercise their discretion, which, I consider,
they are perfectly capable of doing. Great delay is
caused from the fact that the Local Government has
to send in a report to the Government of India, and
in order to send in that report, it has first of all to
come to the Director, and he has to work up a case in
support of the position which he has taken in the
matter.
Mr. G. W.
Kiichler.
31 Dec., 1907.
16552. Do you have to answer the criticisms of the
Government of India paragraph by paragraph ?—-Yes,
and we have to make out a ease.
16553. You would prefer broad principles to be
laid down by the Government of India, and, inside
those principles, great latitude to be left ?—Yes.
16554. Does the Director-General of Education inter-
fere in your department?—He does not interfere
directly, but in connection with the point I have just
raised, there might be a good deal of undue inter-
ference. He of course advises the Home Secretary to
the Government of India, and then the Home Sec-
retary, acting on the advice he has got, sends these
letters to the Local Government, so that though the
Director has no direct power, he has a good deal of in-
direct power, and I should imagine since the office of
the Director-General of Education has been instituted,
that there has been a good deal more interference in
matters of detail in purely educational matters with
the Local Governments than there was before.
16555. You have never been in the Secretariat of
the Education Department ?—No.
16556. So that you have no special experience, either
one way or the other, of whether there was, or was
not, interference ?—Except in one or two cases, which
have been put before me, and Mr. Earle has shown me
one or two cases in which there has been undue inter-
ference. One case I might cite was in connection with
the organization of European education here. The
last letter that came from the Government of India
went into very great detail with regard to purely
educational matters. The Government of Bengal has
its educational advisers, who are quite competent to
advise them on all these points, and, of course, it is not
a question of the Government of India merely giving'
the advice ; it is a question of their expecting an
elaborate report in reply to their suggestions.
16557. Is the organization of European education to
which you refer, confined only to the province of
Bengal ?—No ; it is a scheme which affects the whole
of India. There must be a certain amount of co-
ordination in respect of education, but within the
limits of that co-ordination, a certain amount of lati-
tude should be left to the Local Governments each to
work out its own scheme.
16558. Can you give any other instances of detail with
regard to education in which the Government of India
have unduly interfered?—Yes; they went very fully
into the curricula of study, and into the question of
the syllabus and the method of awarding scholarships ;
also into the method by which the schools should be
inspected. The Government of Bengal had put forward
certain proposals- with regard to a system of inspection
of schools, and that system was taken exception to by
the Government of India ; they said that, unless the
case was put more clearly, they would not be able to
give their sanction.
16559. With regard to the curricula or the method
of inspection, is there any reason why the procedure in
Bengal should differ from the procedure in the United
Provinces ?—There might be some local conditions
which might give rise to a difference, but apart from
that, the Local Government ought to have a little
initiative. We ought not to have an absolutely stereo-
typed system throughout the whole of India.
16560. One can understand that in different pro-
vinces, with different races and different languages and
so forth, they might require different treatment; but
in the case of European education, would not the con-
ditions of European education be very much the same
in all the provinces ?—They would, at any rate in the
north of India.
16561. Would it not be desirable to standardize that
education in the case of Europeans ?—The powers the
Local Government proposed to exercise were very
small; it was merely a question whether manual and
scientific education should both be made compulsory.
16562. Might not a general principle be involved in
that ?—There is something to be said from that point
33263
M