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https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0143
BO Y A L COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
137
spend upon any particular pressing matters which they
considered it desirable to undertake. Do you think it
would be safe to put much money under their control
in that way without post-audit ?—Not large sums.
17790. The expenditure ought to be on objects for
which money could be included in the budget ?—Yes ;
it must be capable of audit.
17791. You suggest localising promotion and taking
whoever may be nearest on the spot within certain
areas. If that were the general policy would it be
necessary to do anything to compensate seniors ?—I
have said, within the limits of one season —• what
we understand by “ hot weather vacancies.” 1 That
is practically a nine months’ vacancy — March to
December.
17792. That would occasionally deprive the next
man in the district of his promotion and put him out
of pocket for nine months ?—For that year certainly.
That might be neglected.
17793. Do you think anything of the suggestion that
in such a case the acting allowance might be divided ;
the junior would get a windfall of half, and the
senior would avoid a transfer, taking the other half ?—
I do not think it is to be recommended that a man
should draw extra pay unless he does extra work.
17794. The arrangement is for the convenience of
the State. It is the recognition of a seniority claim
which, for the purposes of public convenience, it is
undesirable to fully act on ? —I would rather avoid
the recognition of a claim of seniority in officiating
appointments.
17795. You say that you would like something
simpler sometimes than anything you have got under
your present Municipal Act. Have you any Act which
allows sanitary committees to be formed?—I think
that is a proposal in the amendment of the District
Boards Act. We had a lower class of municipality
under the old Municipal Act before the Act of 1885.
17796. (Sir Frederic Lely.') Has that the connection
of Orissa and Bengal been injurious to Orissa ?—I do
not think it has been injurious to Orissa ; it may have
been a rather neglected part of the province, but I
cannot conceive any arrangement under which it would
not have been more neglected. It is most closely
united to Bengal, and more easily administered from
Bengal than from Madras or the Central Provinces.
17797. Has it been anything more than neglected ;
has the administration of Orissa been unsuitable in
consequence of its connection with Bengal ?—I would
not commit myself to any such general statement. I
think that sufficient attention has not been paid to
Orissa questions, because so few people are familiar
with them. I have already said that I think perhaps
some of the Bengal Tenancy Act provisions which
were not entirely suitable to Orissa have been imposed
upon it when it would have been more desirable that
they should have been modified.
17798. What do you say about the law on partitions
as being unsuitable to the conditions of Orissa ?—I
cannot say that I see the unsuitability. I have passed
a large number of partitions, and on the whole they go
through more easily and with less contention than in
Bihar. When there is trouble it is usually due to the
very inferior quality of the Orissa officers ; the latter
are inferior to Bengali officers, and more inclined to
make muddles in their work, but I do not see any
inherent unsuitability in the Partition Act.
17799. Generally speaking, Bengal is a zamindari
province, and Orissa has altogether a different system
of land tenure9—The great difference is in the
temporary settlement in Orissa.
17800. Has there not been a tendency to force Orissa
into the mould of Bengal ?—That is too indefinite a
question for me to reply to. Officers who have no
experience of Orissa are at a great disadvantage when
they first go there ; it takes some time to learn the
conditions
17801. Have most men who serve in Orissa passed
their novitiate in Bengal ?—Nearly all who are there
at present have been backwards and forwards ; those
who have not are at a disadvantage.
17802. Is it a popular province amongst Govern-
ment officers?—It is fairly popular ; the Government
regard the districts, as rather light, and they have not
always sent the best officers ; there are some exceptions.
33263
17803. It has often been proposed that the Com- Mr. F. W.
missioner should be made into some sort of Sub- Duke.
Governor. Would it not be against that, that the -
Commissioner’s office has no traditions. I mean that 3 Jan., 1908,
when a Commissioner takes any action, however im-
portant it may be, it is regarded as the act of an
individual and not as constituting a precedent ?—The
Commissioner’s offices vary very much ; in some, the
precedents have been carefully kept, in some they
have not. I had great difficulty in Orissa in finding
precedents, due to the somewhat inferior office.
17804. But taking the Commissioner as an institu-
tion, he has not the weight of a Governor ?—Of course
he has not the weight of a Government.
17805. Even in those matters in which he gives
orders he does not deal with such high matters ?—In
the matter of appeals, if his precedents are properly
kept, I think they are followed. For instance, in
Bihar, the precedents were well kept, and it was per-
fectly well known what the Commissioner’s action
would be with regard to particular questions which had
already been dealt with. But, of course, it is liable
not to be the case, because special attention has never
been directed, as far as I know, to maintaining a body
of precedents.
17806. If the Commissioner is endowed with powers
more approaching to those of a Sub-Governor, he
ought also to have a stronger personal staff ?—Yes, he
would probably require an additional personal assistant
and probably it would be necessary to look for a man
of greater weight as personal assistant than is always,
the case now.
17807. Possibly a man from the Civil Service ?—Yes.
I should not like to undertake very much greater
powers without a strengthening of the personal staff.
17808. To take the place, more or less, of the perma-
nent Secretariat of Government ?—More or less.
17809. (Mr. Dutt.') You have told us that you think
that a general Act of delegation would be useful. Is
it your meaning that by a general Act the Government
of Bengal, for instance, would, after the passing of
such an Act, have the power to delegate by an executive
order any of its statutory powers to Commissioners or
Collectors ?—Yes ; that was partly my meaning.
17810. Supposing the power of sanctioning taxation
is vested by a particular Act in the Bengal Govern-
ment, if the Bengal Government transferred the power
to Commissioners or Collectors by an Executive order,
would that be a popular measure?-I do not think
that anything that would make taxation more heavy
could possibly be popular.
17811. But with regard to the transfer of that
power by executive order—would the people appreciate
that ?—I can hardly answer the question. I think the
people would object to taxation wherever it came from.
17812. Suppose it was intended to transfer the power
from the hands of Government to the hands of
the Commissioner or of the Collector, would it be a
better plan of doing so by an amending Act after full
debate in Council ?—You mean amending the parti-
cular measure ; it would be the more popular plan.
17813. Has the Commissioner now sufficient control
over police matters and the general working of the
police ?—There have been some changes in reference
to departmental appeals ; they are recent, and I have
not been able to form a final opinion upon them. I am
inclined to think that they are not entirely satisfactory
—that the Commissioner has been dissociated from
appeals. In the same way, as the result of discussion
that took place a little more than a year ago, the
reporting of special crime, heinous crime, was altered.
Reports of certain cases do not come to the Com-
missioner now ; in other cases reports are only given
if they are specially asked for. I was not much in
favour of that change when it was made, but I am not
able to say that I have seen any deleterious results
from it.
17814. Generally speaking, ought the Commissioner
to be in fairly close touch with police work, so as to
be able to control that work ?—Certainly.
17815. What is your opinion about the Com-
missioner’s powers with regard to Public Works
executed in his own division ?—At present he is con-
sulted as to the order of priority, but I do not know
exactly what weight is given to his decisions. It takes
so long to carry out works after they are recommended
S
137
spend upon any particular pressing matters which they
considered it desirable to undertake. Do you think it
would be safe to put much money under their control
in that way without post-audit ?—Not large sums.
17790. The expenditure ought to be on objects for
which money could be included in the budget ?—Yes ;
it must be capable of audit.
17791. You suggest localising promotion and taking
whoever may be nearest on the spot within certain
areas. If that were the general policy would it be
necessary to do anything to compensate seniors ?—I
have said, within the limits of one season —• what
we understand by “ hot weather vacancies.” 1 That
is practically a nine months’ vacancy — March to
December.
17792. That would occasionally deprive the next
man in the district of his promotion and put him out
of pocket for nine months ?—For that year certainly.
That might be neglected.
17793. Do you think anything of the suggestion that
in such a case the acting allowance might be divided ;
the junior would get a windfall of half, and the
senior would avoid a transfer, taking the other half ?—
I do not think it is to be recommended that a man
should draw extra pay unless he does extra work.
17794. The arrangement is for the convenience of
the State. It is the recognition of a seniority claim
which, for the purposes of public convenience, it is
undesirable to fully act on ? —I would rather avoid
the recognition of a claim of seniority in officiating
appointments.
17795. You say that you would like something
simpler sometimes than anything you have got under
your present Municipal Act. Have you any Act which
allows sanitary committees to be formed?—I think
that is a proposal in the amendment of the District
Boards Act. We had a lower class of municipality
under the old Municipal Act before the Act of 1885.
17796. (Sir Frederic Lely.') Has that the connection
of Orissa and Bengal been injurious to Orissa ?—I do
not think it has been injurious to Orissa ; it may have
been a rather neglected part of the province, but I
cannot conceive any arrangement under which it would
not have been more neglected. It is most closely
united to Bengal, and more easily administered from
Bengal than from Madras or the Central Provinces.
17797. Has it been anything more than neglected ;
has the administration of Orissa been unsuitable in
consequence of its connection with Bengal ?—I would
not commit myself to any such general statement. I
think that sufficient attention has not been paid to
Orissa questions, because so few people are familiar
with them. I have already said that I think perhaps
some of the Bengal Tenancy Act provisions which
were not entirely suitable to Orissa have been imposed
upon it when it would have been more desirable that
they should have been modified.
17798. What do you say about the law on partitions
as being unsuitable to the conditions of Orissa ?—I
cannot say that I see the unsuitability. I have passed
a large number of partitions, and on the whole they go
through more easily and with less contention than in
Bihar. When there is trouble it is usually due to the
very inferior quality of the Orissa officers ; the latter
are inferior to Bengali officers, and more inclined to
make muddles in their work, but I do not see any
inherent unsuitability in the Partition Act.
17799. Generally speaking, Bengal is a zamindari
province, and Orissa has altogether a different system
of land tenure9—The great difference is in the
temporary settlement in Orissa.
17800. Has there not been a tendency to force Orissa
into the mould of Bengal ?—That is too indefinite a
question for me to reply to. Officers who have no
experience of Orissa are at a great disadvantage when
they first go there ; it takes some time to learn the
conditions
17801. Have most men who serve in Orissa passed
their novitiate in Bengal ?—Nearly all who are there
at present have been backwards and forwards ; those
who have not are at a disadvantage.
17802. Is it a popular province amongst Govern-
ment officers?—It is fairly popular ; the Government
regard the districts, as rather light, and they have not
always sent the best officers ; there are some exceptions.
33263
17803. It has often been proposed that the Com- Mr. F. W.
missioner should be made into some sort of Sub- Duke.
Governor. Would it not be against that, that the -
Commissioner’s office has no traditions. I mean that 3 Jan., 1908,
when a Commissioner takes any action, however im-
portant it may be, it is regarded as the act of an
individual and not as constituting a precedent ?—The
Commissioner’s offices vary very much ; in some, the
precedents have been carefully kept, in some they
have not. I had great difficulty in Orissa in finding
precedents, due to the somewhat inferior office.
17804. But taking the Commissioner as an institu-
tion, he has not the weight of a Governor ?—Of course
he has not the weight of a Government.
17805. Even in those matters in which he gives
orders he does not deal with such high matters ?—In
the matter of appeals, if his precedents are properly
kept, I think they are followed. For instance, in
Bihar, the precedents were well kept, and it was per-
fectly well known what the Commissioner’s action
would be with regard to particular questions which had
already been dealt with. But, of course, it is liable
not to be the case, because special attention has never
been directed, as far as I know, to maintaining a body
of precedents.
17806. If the Commissioner is endowed with powers
more approaching to those of a Sub-Governor, he
ought also to have a stronger personal staff ?—Yes, he
would probably require an additional personal assistant
and probably it would be necessary to look for a man
of greater weight as personal assistant than is always,
the case now.
17807. Possibly a man from the Civil Service ?—Yes.
I should not like to undertake very much greater
powers without a strengthening of the personal staff.
17808. To take the place, more or less, of the perma-
nent Secretariat of Government ?—More or less.
17809. (Mr. Dutt.') You have told us that you think
that a general Act of delegation would be useful. Is
it your meaning that by a general Act the Government
of Bengal, for instance, would, after the passing of
such an Act, have the power to delegate by an executive
order any of its statutory powers to Commissioners or
Collectors ?—Yes ; that was partly my meaning.
17810. Supposing the power of sanctioning taxation
is vested by a particular Act in the Bengal Govern-
ment, if the Bengal Government transferred the power
to Commissioners or Collectors by an Executive order,
would that be a popular measure?-I do not think
that anything that would make taxation more heavy
could possibly be popular.
17811. But with regard to the transfer of that
power by executive order—would the people appreciate
that ?—I can hardly answer the question. I think the
people would object to taxation wherever it came from.
17812. Suppose it was intended to transfer the power
from the hands of Government to the hands of
the Commissioner or of the Collector, would it be a
better plan of doing so by an amending Act after full
debate in Council ?—You mean amending the parti-
cular measure ; it would be the more popular plan.
17813. Has the Commissioner now sufficient control
over police matters and the general working of the
police ?—There have been some changes in reference
to departmental appeals ; they are recent, and I have
not been able to form a final opinion upon them. I am
inclined to think that they are not entirely satisfactory
—that the Commissioner has been dissociated from
appeals. In the same way, as the result of discussion
that took place a little more than a year ago, the
reporting of special crime, heinous crime, was altered.
Reports of certain cases do not come to the Com-
missioner now ; in other cases reports are only given
if they are specially asked for. I was not much in
favour of that change when it was made, but I am not
able to say that I have seen any deleterious results
from it.
17814. Generally speaking, ought the Commissioner
to be in fairly close touch with police work, so as to
be able to control that work ?—Certainly.
17815. What is your opinion about the Com-
missioner’s powers with regard to Public Works
executed in his own division ?—At present he is con-
sulted as to the order of priority, but I do not know
exactly what weight is given to his decisions. It takes
so long to carry out works after they are recommended
S