DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68025#0192
186
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
The Hon.
Mr. William
Charles
Macpherson.
29 Jan., 1908.
18941. Would you be satisfied if the Government of
India told him not to trouble about details but to
discuss them with the Government of Bengal ?—That
would be common sense.
18942. You have mentioned various matters which
had been delayed owing to discussion between the
Government of Bengal and the Government of India,
but is it not useful that there should be delay some-
times in legislation?—Yes, very useful.
18943. Some three years ago did not the Govern-
ment of Bengal send up a new Excise Bill to the
Government, of India ?—I think we first sent up
proposals for amendment of the Bengal Excise Act
more than ten years ago.
18944. But the Bill was recast by various Lieutenant-
Governors, and the present Lieutenant-Governor sent
it up in 1904 ?—Yes.
18945. And the Government of India sent it back
with some criticism ?—-They did, and very much im-
proved it.
18946. Then, finally, the Excise Committee said
they considered the Bill a bad one and advised the
Bengal Government to go on entirely different lines ?
—And we have now recast it on the lines suggested by
the Excise Committee ; but I am not at all sure that
it would not have been better to have had an imperfect
Act 10 years ago rather than to wait 10 years for a
better Act.
18947. Has the rule to which you refer with regard
to appeals stopped a good deal of work?—I do not
think so ; it was not my experience that appeal work
was excessive before we revised our rules.
18948. (Mr. Hitchens.') Is the principle with regard
to provincial administration, that in administrative
matters the province has as free a hand as possible ?—
That is a principle to be generally accepted.
18949. But it has to be qualified in certain ways,
and one of those ways is that it is desirable to have
uniformity as between one province and another?
—Yes.
18950. With regard to travelling allowance, would
you say that possibly some uniformity was desirable ?
—Certainly, on the whole, with exceptions arising out
of the fact that travelling is more expensive in some
districts than in others.
18951. Is the genera 1 principle of travelling allow-
ance that you should reimburse the officer concerned
his out-of-pocket expenses for travelling ?—It is the
first principle of travelling allowance in India that it
must not be made a source of gain, but that it must
■cover all proper expenses of travelling.
18952. Having laid that principle down, do you
think that a major province with a Lieutenant-
Governor or a province with a Governor-in-Council is
incapable, with the advice of all the officers under him,
of devising a scheme which would carry that out
reasonably ?—I think it is well within the capacity of
a Local Government to devise such a scheme.
18953. If such a Government is told to prepare a
scheme whereby an officer is to be reimbursed his out-
of-pocket expenses, would it be able to do it ?—Yes.
18954. Therefore is there any necessity for any
further uniformity as between one province and
another ?—I think differences would develop very
quickly, but that you might leave each Local Govern-
ment to decide.
18955. Would it matter much if there were one
scale of travelling allowance in Baluchistan and
another in Burma, for instance ?—Probably it would
not matter.
18956. Would it matter if you had one scale in
Lower Bengal and another in Eastern Bengal ?—I
suppose there would always be a tendency to level up ;
there would be discontent in any province if there was
some notable difference as compared with the condi-
tion of things just over the border.
18957. Then one of two things in that case must
happen ; either one Government has made much too
low a travelling allowance, or the other too high a
one ?—Yes.
18958. Would you be in favour of letting each
province fix its own allowances subject to a general
principle ?—Yes.
18959. Would you say the same with regard to a
local allowance ?—I think that in the case of the
higher officers I would leave that with the Government
of India.
18960. What is the object of a local allowance ?—It
is to compensate for living in a particular place, or for
particular disadvantages, such as an unhealthy station,
or duty, or for specially arduous work.
18961. Which should be the authority to say what
the extra expense of living in a particular place is-
the Local Government or the Government of India?
•—Undoubtedly the Local Government has most know-
ledge of the facts.
18962. Given that you can trust your Local
Administration, is it not enough to say that a
local allowance should merely cover the extra cost
of living, and would they not have the common sense
and integrity to carry that out reasonably ?—You
would have much greater variety quickly developing
in the matter of the grant of local allowances.
18963. Supposing all cases of the kind were
reported to the Government of India for their
information, so that they could see what was going
on ; and if it was found there was a great divergence
they were to call together a small committee to
consider the matter; would that not meet the
difficulty ?—It would meet the difficulty to a large
extent.
18964. It would avoid any rigidity which might
arise from the tendency which you indicate, to hesitate
to appeal in certain matters to the Government of
India ?—Yes.
18965. On the whole, is that feeling of hesitation a
good one or a bad one ?—I think it is on the whole
good.
18966. One must admit that mistakes are made by
every department, and what one wants to get at is the
best principal ; is it best to select as good a man as
you can get for a provincial Government and be
prepared to trust his judgment, or is it best to hedge
him round with conditions so that he cannot exercise
that judgment ?—-I plead for more power for the
Lieutenant-Governor in such matters.
18967. You say that a Commissioner should have
more power with regard to Public Works, but what
powers would you give him ?—I would not give him
a separate budget for his division with the last word ;
he should get from the Superintending Engineer the
budget for the division and make on it his remarks
and suggestions for the orders of Government.
18968. I understand that you are not in favour of
Advisory Councils for District Officers or Com-
missioners?—I think there is more to be said in
favour of Advisory Councils for the Commissioner
under the present circumstances than for such
Councils for the District Officer.
18969. Is there enough work for these bodies to do,
assuming that they do not deal with matters which
to-day come before District Boards and the Boards
below them ?—There is plenty of work, but it is not
work which should at present be made over to an
Advisory Council ; it is much better that one man
should do it without being compelled to call an
Advisory Council to help him to make up his mind.
18970. Would there be enough work for such a
Council meeting, say, once a month, in the division ?—
Yes, there is work enough.
18971. (Mr. Dutt). With regard to what you said
as to receiving help from Directors-General, to what
did you particularly refer ?—In regard to new ideas
and the practice prevailing in other provinces which
would be brought to the notice of the Director in this
province
18972. Has that helped the Bengal Government to
shape, say, its educational policy to some extent ?—I
think so.
18973. Have you received any assistance from any
other officer besides the Director-General of Education ?
—Yes, from the Inspector-General of Agriculture and
the Agricultural Chemist; I have had a great deal of
assistance from them.
18974. You said that you would like a general Act
of delegation with certain safeguards, and you
explained that the safeguards would be that when
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
The Hon.
Mr. William
Charles
Macpherson.
29 Jan., 1908.
18941. Would you be satisfied if the Government of
India told him not to trouble about details but to
discuss them with the Government of Bengal ?—That
would be common sense.
18942. You have mentioned various matters which
had been delayed owing to discussion between the
Government of Bengal and the Government of India,
but is it not useful that there should be delay some-
times in legislation?—Yes, very useful.
18943. Some three years ago did not the Govern-
ment of Bengal send up a new Excise Bill to the
Government, of India ?—I think we first sent up
proposals for amendment of the Bengal Excise Act
more than ten years ago.
18944. But the Bill was recast by various Lieutenant-
Governors, and the present Lieutenant-Governor sent
it up in 1904 ?—Yes.
18945. And the Government of India sent it back
with some criticism ?—-They did, and very much im-
proved it.
18946. Then, finally, the Excise Committee said
they considered the Bill a bad one and advised the
Bengal Government to go on entirely different lines ?
—And we have now recast it on the lines suggested by
the Excise Committee ; but I am not at all sure that
it would not have been better to have had an imperfect
Act 10 years ago rather than to wait 10 years for a
better Act.
18947. Has the rule to which you refer with regard
to appeals stopped a good deal of work?—I do not
think so ; it was not my experience that appeal work
was excessive before we revised our rules.
18948. (Mr. Hitchens.') Is the principle with regard
to provincial administration, that in administrative
matters the province has as free a hand as possible ?—
That is a principle to be generally accepted.
18949. But it has to be qualified in certain ways,
and one of those ways is that it is desirable to have
uniformity as between one province and another?
—Yes.
18950. With regard to travelling allowance, would
you say that possibly some uniformity was desirable ?
—Certainly, on the whole, with exceptions arising out
of the fact that travelling is more expensive in some
districts than in others.
18951. Is the genera 1 principle of travelling allow-
ance that you should reimburse the officer concerned
his out-of-pocket expenses for travelling ?—It is the
first principle of travelling allowance in India that it
must not be made a source of gain, but that it must
■cover all proper expenses of travelling.
18952. Having laid that principle down, do you
think that a major province with a Lieutenant-
Governor or a province with a Governor-in-Council is
incapable, with the advice of all the officers under him,
of devising a scheme which would carry that out
reasonably ?—I think it is well within the capacity of
a Local Government to devise such a scheme.
18953. If such a Government is told to prepare a
scheme whereby an officer is to be reimbursed his out-
of-pocket expenses, would it be able to do it ?—Yes.
18954. Therefore is there any necessity for any
further uniformity as between one province and
another ?—I think differences would develop very
quickly, but that you might leave each Local Govern-
ment to decide.
18955. Would it matter much if there were one
scale of travelling allowance in Baluchistan and
another in Burma, for instance ?—Probably it would
not matter.
18956. Would it matter if you had one scale in
Lower Bengal and another in Eastern Bengal ?—I
suppose there would always be a tendency to level up ;
there would be discontent in any province if there was
some notable difference as compared with the condi-
tion of things just over the border.
18957. Then one of two things in that case must
happen ; either one Government has made much too
low a travelling allowance, or the other too high a
one ?—Yes.
18958. Would you be in favour of letting each
province fix its own allowances subject to a general
principle ?—Yes.
18959. Would you say the same with regard to a
local allowance ?—I think that in the case of the
higher officers I would leave that with the Government
of India.
18960. What is the object of a local allowance ?—It
is to compensate for living in a particular place, or for
particular disadvantages, such as an unhealthy station,
or duty, or for specially arduous work.
18961. Which should be the authority to say what
the extra expense of living in a particular place is-
the Local Government or the Government of India?
•—Undoubtedly the Local Government has most know-
ledge of the facts.
18962. Given that you can trust your Local
Administration, is it not enough to say that a
local allowance should merely cover the extra cost
of living, and would they not have the common sense
and integrity to carry that out reasonably ?—You
would have much greater variety quickly developing
in the matter of the grant of local allowances.
18963. Supposing all cases of the kind were
reported to the Government of India for their
information, so that they could see what was going
on ; and if it was found there was a great divergence
they were to call together a small committee to
consider the matter; would that not meet the
difficulty ?—It would meet the difficulty to a large
extent.
18964. It would avoid any rigidity which might
arise from the tendency which you indicate, to hesitate
to appeal in certain matters to the Government of
India ?—Yes.
18965. On the whole, is that feeling of hesitation a
good one or a bad one ?—I think it is on the whole
good.
18966. One must admit that mistakes are made by
every department, and what one wants to get at is the
best principal ; is it best to select as good a man as
you can get for a provincial Government and be
prepared to trust his judgment, or is it best to hedge
him round with conditions so that he cannot exercise
that judgment ?—-I plead for more power for the
Lieutenant-Governor in such matters.
18967. You say that a Commissioner should have
more power with regard to Public Works, but what
powers would you give him ?—I would not give him
a separate budget for his division with the last word ;
he should get from the Superintending Engineer the
budget for the division and make on it his remarks
and suggestions for the orders of Government.
18968. I understand that you are not in favour of
Advisory Councils for District Officers or Com-
missioners?—I think there is more to be said in
favour of Advisory Councils for the Commissioner
under the present circumstances than for such
Councils for the District Officer.
18969. Is there enough work for these bodies to do,
assuming that they do not deal with matters which
to-day come before District Boards and the Boards
below them ?—There is plenty of work, but it is not
work which should at present be made over to an
Advisory Council ; it is much better that one man
should do it without being compelled to call an
Advisory Council to help him to make up his mind.
18970. Would there be enough work for such a
Council meeting, say, once a month, in the division ?—
Yes, there is work enough.
18971. (Mr. Dutt). With regard to what you said
as to receiving help from Directors-General, to what
did you particularly refer ?—In regard to new ideas
and the practice prevailing in other provinces which
would be brought to the notice of the Director in this
province
18972. Has that helped the Bengal Government to
shape, say, its educational policy to some extent ?—I
think so.
18973. Have you received any assistance from any
other officer besides the Director-General of Education ?
—Yes, from the Inspector-General of Agriculture and
the Agricultural Chemist; I have had a great deal of
assistance from them.
18974. You said that you would like a general Act
of delegation with certain safeguards, and you
explained that the safeguards would be that when