DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0017
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
Il
—I do not think so ; there is no competition between the
departments, or there ought to be no competition, as to
that; it is the general interest to get the best man into
the place ; obviously the medical people would lose and
the sanitary people would gain.
42687. You also say “ The practice of sanitary
engineering in India must be learned locally : there is all
the difference in the world between an engineer with a
liking for and experience of sanitary work in India and
an equally competent engineer without his liking and
experience.” Is that not exactly the present system in
force, for instance, in Bombay ?—It is the system in
many places ; the trouble has been that we have had
very few of these men.
42688. How many Sanitary Engineers do you want
in a province ?—You may want a great many ; in the
United Provinces for instance besides the Sanitary
Engineer for the Government you want half a dozen
for the towns. At present it is not a Government
Service at all. A man who is doing a very large
amount of sanitary engineering engages men privately
in England for the municipality ; I think you could
get the same material for less money if the men
belonged to Government; you could also create a
Service upon which you could draw to fill vacancies.
42689. You would entirely do away with the local
interest of the bodies having their own engineers ?—
The body has its own engineer ; it pays a man Rs. 600
a month for three or four years while the work is going
on it could not afford to go on paying Rs. 600 a
month.
42690. Again you say “ Under the present system
an engineer is gazetted to a sanitary appointment with
little reference to his special fitness for the post ” ?—I
am afraid that is the case.
42691. Do you really suppose that the Local Govern-
ments do not choose their Sanitary Engineers with
more care than that ?—You cannot choose when you
have not got the men.
42692. Do you say that we have not got any suitable
men on the local cadres ?— In certain provinces they
have not got them ; that is an actual fact.
42693. It is not a fact in Bombay ?—I have said
nothing about Bombay.
42694. This is a general statement ?■—My statement
is “ Under the present system an engineer is gazetted
to a sanitary appointment with little reference to his
special fitness for the post ” ; that very often happens ;
I do not say that it always happens, or suggest that it
always happens.
42695. You say, “ The remedy is the creation of a
separate Service of Sanitary Engineers ” ; would they
be brought out from England ?—Yes.
42696. That would entirely conflict with your argu-
ment that sanitary engineering in India must be learnt
locally?—Not at all ; we must get the men and we
must train them ; they must be trained as engineers,
and they should have a certain training as Sanitary
Engineers before they came out, at least three years ;
I would not give them work or be responsible for them
until they had gained experience.
42697. You say that you submitted these proposals
after conferring with the Local Governments ; did you
really confer with the Government of Bombay about
them ?—Not with the Government of Bombay qua
Government; I discussed these matters with Mr.
Muir Mackenzie. On the occasion of my last visit to
Bombay I was referred by Mr. Muir Mackenzie to
you, and I failed to meet you ; you were in Cal-
cutta.
42698. Did you see my predecessor about them ?—
No, I did not discuss them with him at all.
42699. How often have you come to Bombay since
your appointment ?—Three times : in December, 1906 ;
February, 1905 ; and December, 1904.
42700. Do you generally give the Local Government
notice of when you are coming?—No, I cannot say
that I generally do ; 1 generally communicate with my
own people, not with the Local Government as a Local
Government.
42701. You do not ask the Local Government
whether there is anything in the province, as you
happen to be there, that they would like you to look
at ?—No ; I write to the Sanitary Commissioner and
4 Jan., 1908
Colonel
J. T. W.
Ledie.
say I am coming, would he like to see me : and when I
get to the place I call on the secretary and I call on
the member.
42702. Did you do that in December, 1904 ?—Not
in December, 1904 ; I was in Bombay and I saw my
own people, but practically I was on privilege leave in
1904. In 1905 I came down and I saw Mr. Muir
Mackenzie and Mr. Quin ; I saw His Excellency ; and
Colonel Channer came with me, and remained in Bom-
bay with me for some time.
42703. Do you not think that the Local Governments
would be extremely grateful to you if you gave them
a little notice ?—I should be only too pleased to get
into relations with the Local Government, but one is
almost afraid to approach them.
42704. For instance, you might let them know you
were coming, and they could ask you whether you could
help them on any matter ; there may be questions as
to which they would be only too glad to have your
advice ?—I should be very glad indeed.
42705. When you leave a Presidency, do you not
think you might write and say that you had been there,
and, if it be so, say that you had not noticed any-
thing wrong ?—I think that would be too much for me
to do.
42706. Or say, “ I have noticed this, that or the
other and I tell you of it ” ?—I should be very glad,
but I should not do that unless the Local Government
asked me to do it; I should not' offer to do it ; I
might come to very serious grief.
42707. You really think so?—I might—not possibly
with the Local Government, but with the Home
Department.
42708. You discussed this proposal with the pro-
vincial Sanitary Commissioner ?—I think he saw the
letter.
42709. Did he not write a letter to the Local
Government about March 1906 forwarding a number
of letters from his Deputies, and complaining of the
prospects and so on of the department?—Yes, I saw
that letter.
42710. He at the same time forwarded a copy of his
letter officially to you ?—Yes ; he had no right to
do so.
42711. Did you send it back to him and say that
you could not accept it ?—I paid no attention to the
communication at all.
42712. You did not show him that you considered
he had gone outside his sphere ?—I perhaps ought to
have sent it back ; it did not occur to me ; I paid no
attention to it ; I did not answer it.
42713. When that state of things comes to the
notice of the Local Government is it not apt to make
them have some suspicion ?—Of course.
42714. Would you not be in a very much stronger
position with the Local Government if you were able
to say “ I refused to receive the communication, I
returned it”?—Perhaps it is a pity I did not return it.
42715. It is one of the dangers of this sort of
appointment which has to be guarded against, that it
does tend to make local officers look past their Local
Government to the officer of the Government of
India ?—It is impossible to say that it does not,
because on a particular occasion it has done so ; but I
do not think it necessarily does so.
42716. I do not say anything more than that there
is that tendency to be guarded against ?—It certainly
has to be guarded against and strongly guarded against.
42717. And might I put it that on that one particular
unfortunate occasion it was not quite so strongly
guarded against as it might have been ?—I am not
prepared to admit that ; I think it would have been
better to have sent the letter back ; I do not know
that it was officially incorrect not to send it back ; the
ignoring of it was quite as effective.
42718. {Mr. Meyer.) Was this report of the
14th August, 1906, submitted on your own initiative?
—It depends really on the resolution of the 8th
September, where Government said that they wanted
the Sanitary Commissioner to submit a general scheme.
42719. You proposed a scheme which goes consider-
ably in the direction of centralization ; was that on
your own initiative ?—So far as centralization is con-
cerned, it is certainly entirely on my own initiative.
33383
B 2
Il
—I do not think so ; there is no competition between the
departments, or there ought to be no competition, as to
that; it is the general interest to get the best man into
the place ; obviously the medical people would lose and
the sanitary people would gain.
42687. You also say “ The practice of sanitary
engineering in India must be learned locally : there is all
the difference in the world between an engineer with a
liking for and experience of sanitary work in India and
an equally competent engineer without his liking and
experience.” Is that not exactly the present system in
force, for instance, in Bombay ?—It is the system in
many places ; the trouble has been that we have had
very few of these men.
42688. How many Sanitary Engineers do you want
in a province ?—You may want a great many ; in the
United Provinces for instance besides the Sanitary
Engineer for the Government you want half a dozen
for the towns. At present it is not a Government
Service at all. A man who is doing a very large
amount of sanitary engineering engages men privately
in England for the municipality ; I think you could
get the same material for less money if the men
belonged to Government; you could also create a
Service upon which you could draw to fill vacancies.
42689. You would entirely do away with the local
interest of the bodies having their own engineers ?—
The body has its own engineer ; it pays a man Rs. 600
a month for three or four years while the work is going
on it could not afford to go on paying Rs. 600 a
month.
42690. Again you say “ Under the present system
an engineer is gazetted to a sanitary appointment with
little reference to his special fitness for the post ” ?—I
am afraid that is the case.
42691. Do you really suppose that the Local Govern-
ments do not choose their Sanitary Engineers with
more care than that ?—You cannot choose when you
have not got the men.
42692. Do you say that we have not got any suitable
men on the local cadres ?— In certain provinces they
have not got them ; that is an actual fact.
42693. It is not a fact in Bombay ?—I have said
nothing about Bombay.
42694. This is a general statement ?■—My statement
is “ Under the present system an engineer is gazetted
to a sanitary appointment with little reference to his
special fitness for the post ” ; that very often happens ;
I do not say that it always happens, or suggest that it
always happens.
42695. You say, “ The remedy is the creation of a
separate Service of Sanitary Engineers ” ; would they
be brought out from England ?—Yes.
42696. That would entirely conflict with your argu-
ment that sanitary engineering in India must be learnt
locally?—Not at all ; we must get the men and we
must train them ; they must be trained as engineers,
and they should have a certain training as Sanitary
Engineers before they came out, at least three years ;
I would not give them work or be responsible for them
until they had gained experience.
42697. You say that you submitted these proposals
after conferring with the Local Governments ; did you
really confer with the Government of Bombay about
them ?—Not with the Government of Bombay qua
Government; I discussed these matters with Mr.
Muir Mackenzie. On the occasion of my last visit to
Bombay I was referred by Mr. Muir Mackenzie to
you, and I failed to meet you ; you were in Cal-
cutta.
42698. Did you see my predecessor about them ?—
No, I did not discuss them with him at all.
42699. How often have you come to Bombay since
your appointment ?—Three times : in December, 1906 ;
February, 1905 ; and December, 1904.
42700. Do you generally give the Local Government
notice of when you are coming?—No, I cannot say
that I generally do ; 1 generally communicate with my
own people, not with the Local Government as a Local
Government.
42701. You do not ask the Local Government
whether there is anything in the province, as you
happen to be there, that they would like you to look
at ?—No ; I write to the Sanitary Commissioner and
4 Jan., 1908
Colonel
J. T. W.
Ledie.
say I am coming, would he like to see me : and when I
get to the place I call on the secretary and I call on
the member.
42702. Did you do that in December, 1904 ?—Not
in December, 1904 ; I was in Bombay and I saw my
own people, but practically I was on privilege leave in
1904. In 1905 I came down and I saw Mr. Muir
Mackenzie and Mr. Quin ; I saw His Excellency ; and
Colonel Channer came with me, and remained in Bom-
bay with me for some time.
42703. Do you not think that the Local Governments
would be extremely grateful to you if you gave them
a little notice ?—I should be only too pleased to get
into relations with the Local Government, but one is
almost afraid to approach them.
42704. For instance, you might let them know you
were coming, and they could ask you whether you could
help them on any matter ; there may be questions as
to which they would be only too glad to have your
advice ?—I should be very glad indeed.
42705. When you leave a Presidency, do you not
think you might write and say that you had been there,
and, if it be so, say that you had not noticed any-
thing wrong ?—I think that would be too much for me
to do.
42706. Or say, “ I have noticed this, that or the
other and I tell you of it ” ?—I should be very glad,
but I should not do that unless the Local Government
asked me to do it; I should not' offer to do it ; I
might come to very serious grief.
42707. You really think so?—I might—not possibly
with the Local Government, but with the Home
Department.
42708. You discussed this proposal with the pro-
vincial Sanitary Commissioner ?—I think he saw the
letter.
42709. Did he not write a letter to the Local
Government about March 1906 forwarding a number
of letters from his Deputies, and complaining of the
prospects and so on of the department?—Yes, I saw
that letter.
42710. He at the same time forwarded a copy of his
letter officially to you ?—Yes ; he had no right to
do so.
42711. Did you send it back to him and say that
you could not accept it ?—I paid no attention to the
communication at all.
42712. You did not show him that you considered
he had gone outside his sphere ?—I perhaps ought to
have sent it back ; it did not occur to me ; I paid no
attention to it ; I did not answer it.
42713. When that state of things comes to the
notice of the Local Government is it not apt to make
them have some suspicion ?—Of course.
42714. Would you not be in a very much stronger
position with the Local Government if you were able
to say “ I refused to receive the communication, I
returned it”?—Perhaps it is a pity I did not return it.
42715. It is one of the dangers of this sort of
appointment which has to be guarded against, that it
does tend to make local officers look past their Local
Government to the officer of the Government of
India ?—It is impossible to say that it does not,
because on a particular occasion it has done so ; but I
do not think it necessarily does so.
42716. I do not say anything more than that there
is that tendency to be guarded against ?—It certainly
has to be guarded against and strongly guarded against.
42717. And might I put it that on that one particular
unfortunate occasion it was not quite so strongly
guarded against as it might have been ?—I am not
prepared to admit that ; I think it would have been
better to have sent the letter back ; I do not know
that it was officially incorrect not to send it back ; the
ignoring of it was quite as effective.
42718. {Mr. Meyer.) Was this report of the
14th August, 1906, submitted on your own initiative?
—It depends really on the resolution of the 8th
September, where Government said that they wanted
the Sanitary Commissioner to submit a general scheme.
42719. You proposed a scheme which goes consider-
ably in the direction of centralization ; was that on
your own initiative ?—So far as centralization is con-
cerned, it is certainly entirely on my own initiative.
33383
B 2