DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0057
51
educational scheme without seeing its working, and the 1
intercourse suggested might go far to produce that 1
general assimilation of methods which is in itself de-
sirable. Local conditions must always guide adminis-
tration, but, subject to this limitation, it is obviously
advantageous that what is good in one province should
be known to, and considered by, other provinces.
43515. Are there any regulations or codes which
govern education, generally speaking, all over India ?—
There is no code which governs the whole of India ;
the utmost you could say would be that there was a
Resolution laying down educational policy in 1904,
which is generally followed by the Local Governments ;
the Government of India has never attempted to do
more than that. In the matter of the European
Schools Code there is an article in the code which states
that the code itself may be modified to suit local con-
ditions with the consent of the Government of India,
and in the Bombay Presidency the code has been
modified considerably. In all other respects the Local
Governments have their own educational codes.
43516. Then the Government of India beyond issu-
ing the general lines of policy have never attempted
to make those hard and fast lines into regulations ?—
No, 1 do not think they have. I do not remember
anything in which the Government of India have laid
down an absolute rule on any particular point.
43517. The General Bureau of Education first of all
collects information as to the organization of schools,
and then disseminates it amongst the provincial
Governments ?—Yes, only when information is asked
for.
^’18. It is never sent round at the instigation of
the Director General without being called for from the
provinces ?—Not in my experience.
43519. A witness expressed an opinion that it would
be very desirable if the Director General of Education
did send round circulars with information upon edu-
cational subjects ; would that be within the province
of the Director General ?—If he meant upon educa-
tional subjects generally or upon any specific parts of
the educational system, I think it would be most
undesirable.
43520. That would not be of help or assistance to
Local Governments ?—I should be very sorry to do it
myself.
43521. Would you, as a provincial officer, like to
receive such information ?—Suppose the Director
General collected certain information from other
z countries which might be of use, and that he compiled
something like a report, it might be of use to a Local
Government to have it ; but the Director General
should certainly not have any power himself to send
round a circular letter, or to despatch a compilation,
giving his own experience to the Local Government
with the view of guiding them as to what they were to
do in their administration.
43522. But with regard to information on purely
educational subjects?—It is very difficult to say. For
instance, occasional reports are published at the expense
of the Government of India ; they are sent out for
general information, and they are extremely useful.
43523. Have occasional conferences of Directors of
1 ublic Instruction taken place often since 1901 ?—
Gnly once, in 1905, when Mr. Orange, the Director
General, presided.
43524. Might conferences well be held at regular
intervals ?—The conference in 1905 was rather of a
general description ; we discussed a large number of
things. A triennial conference would be useful, but
the next time there is a conference I should prefer it
to be confined to specific questions. I do not say that
the conference of 1905 was without value ; but we
ranged over a very large field, perhaps larger than was
necessary.
43525. Do you know at all what was the result as
regards the provincial Governments who were repre-
sented there?—Speaking for myself, I do not think
there was any great result to us in Bombay.
43526. The duties of the Director General being to
advise the Government of India on educational sub-
jects, what happens when proposals come up to the
Government of India from a provincial Government ?
:—They come to the Home Department, and they are
noted upon in the usual way, and then they come from
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
the Deputy Secretary to me ; I give my opinion on Mr. E. Giles.
the papers, and they then go from me to the secretary, -
who, if he thinks fit, can discuss them with me or 3 Feb., 1908.
return them back again for any further explanation
that he thinks is necessary ; they are then taken by
him to the Honourable Member.
43527. Do you do much of the discussion upon such
questions as reach you by notes, or is some considerable
part of it by personal discussion ?—Mostly by notes ;
it is only in difficult cases that sometimes the Deputy
Secretary and Secretary and I discuss the matter to-
gether. but where there is a fair consensus of opinion
it is all done by writing.
43528. Do those notes run to considerable length as
a rule ?—It depends a great deal on the subject; it
may be a very difficult subject that one is noting upon,
and then we have to note at very considerable length ;
it may be a quite simple subject and one is able to note
very shortly. I do not think there is much waste of
time in the Home Department.
43529. How do you acquaint yourself with the
educational system in other Governments ?—As far as
possible by visiting the Governments—by visiting the
different provinces—it would take some time to
acquaint oneself entirely with the educational systems
of all the provinces of India ; I should say five years.
43530. By that time, I suppose, the appointment so
far as the individual is concerned is finished ?—No,
the Director General is appointed as a permanent
officer. He was appointed originally on a three years’
term ; he was then confirmed by the Government of
India and, as far as I am aware, be will remain until he
retires from that position.
43531. Do you know whether the same thing applies
to other Directors General ?—The cases of other
Directors General are quite different, in that they
have always been selected from senior men of the de-
partment, and are therefore approaching the end of their
service. In the case of the Director General of Educa-
tion, he was brought out from home as a comparatively
young man, and presumably will hold the office for
20 years.
43532. Have you no official correspondence with the
1 provincial Governments?—No, that could only take
1 place through the Government of India—through the
Home Department.
43533. Do the provincial Governments refer fre-
quently to the Director General for advice ?—No, not
frequently. References have been made in the ten
months that I have held the appointment. In one
case where the Member for Education in Bombay
referred to me, he was perhaps referring to me more
as an ex-Director of Public Instruction in Bombay
than as Director General. As a rule, the Governments
do not refer to me. The Directors of Public Instruc-
tion occasionally refer to me, and 1 have a certain
amount of demi-official correspondence with them
which is not very frequent, and which merely refers to
questions of actual fact.
43534. Do provincial Governments ever write to the
Home Department of the Government of India and
say, “What does the Director General of Education
think of this proposal of ours ” ?—They never do that
in my experience.
43535. You consult with the local educational autho-
rities upon the various phases of their systems ; is that
after you have made some reference to the provincial
Government ?—No. To take the case in which I went
on tour this year. I stated to the Home Department
that I proposed to make a certain tour and that it
would take me to the headquarters of the Government
of the Punjab, the Government of the United Pro-
vinces, the Government of Bombay, and the Govern-
ment of Madras ; I gave the approximate dates and
the Home Department circulated a copy of my pro-
posed tour to the Local Governments. I then started
on the tour and placed myself in communication with
the Directors of Public Instruction in each place. In
each place I also saw the members of the Governments
who were responsible for education. At Lahore I saw
the Lieutenant-Governor and discussed two or three
educational matters with him. At Allahabad I saw
the Lieutenant-Governor and discussed education with
him, as also with the Director of Public Instruction.
In Madras I discussed educational matters with the
Member in charge of education. In Bombay, as a
G 2
33383
educational scheme without seeing its working, and the 1
intercourse suggested might go far to produce that 1
general assimilation of methods which is in itself de-
sirable. Local conditions must always guide adminis-
tration, but, subject to this limitation, it is obviously
advantageous that what is good in one province should
be known to, and considered by, other provinces.
43515. Are there any regulations or codes which
govern education, generally speaking, all over India ?—
There is no code which governs the whole of India ;
the utmost you could say would be that there was a
Resolution laying down educational policy in 1904,
which is generally followed by the Local Governments ;
the Government of India has never attempted to do
more than that. In the matter of the European
Schools Code there is an article in the code which states
that the code itself may be modified to suit local con-
ditions with the consent of the Government of India,
and in the Bombay Presidency the code has been
modified considerably. In all other respects the Local
Governments have their own educational codes.
43516. Then the Government of India beyond issu-
ing the general lines of policy have never attempted
to make those hard and fast lines into regulations ?—
No, 1 do not think they have. I do not remember
anything in which the Government of India have laid
down an absolute rule on any particular point.
43517. The General Bureau of Education first of all
collects information as to the organization of schools,
and then disseminates it amongst the provincial
Governments ?—Yes, only when information is asked
for.
^’18. It is never sent round at the instigation of
the Director General without being called for from the
provinces ?—Not in my experience.
43519. A witness expressed an opinion that it would
be very desirable if the Director General of Education
did send round circulars with information upon edu-
cational subjects ; would that be within the province
of the Director General ?—If he meant upon educa-
tional subjects generally or upon any specific parts of
the educational system, I think it would be most
undesirable.
43520. That would not be of help or assistance to
Local Governments ?—I should be very sorry to do it
myself.
43521. Would you, as a provincial officer, like to
receive such information ?—Suppose the Director
General collected certain information from other
z countries which might be of use, and that he compiled
something like a report, it might be of use to a Local
Government to have it ; but the Director General
should certainly not have any power himself to send
round a circular letter, or to despatch a compilation,
giving his own experience to the Local Government
with the view of guiding them as to what they were to
do in their administration.
43522. But with regard to information on purely
educational subjects?—It is very difficult to say. For
instance, occasional reports are published at the expense
of the Government of India ; they are sent out for
general information, and they are extremely useful.
43523. Have occasional conferences of Directors of
1 ublic Instruction taken place often since 1901 ?—
Gnly once, in 1905, when Mr. Orange, the Director
General, presided.
43524. Might conferences well be held at regular
intervals ?—The conference in 1905 was rather of a
general description ; we discussed a large number of
things. A triennial conference would be useful, but
the next time there is a conference I should prefer it
to be confined to specific questions. I do not say that
the conference of 1905 was without value ; but we
ranged over a very large field, perhaps larger than was
necessary.
43525. Do you know at all what was the result as
regards the provincial Governments who were repre-
sented there?—Speaking for myself, I do not think
there was any great result to us in Bombay.
43526. The duties of the Director General being to
advise the Government of India on educational sub-
jects, what happens when proposals come up to the
Government of India from a provincial Government ?
:—They come to the Home Department, and they are
noted upon in the usual way, and then they come from
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
the Deputy Secretary to me ; I give my opinion on Mr. E. Giles.
the papers, and they then go from me to the secretary, -
who, if he thinks fit, can discuss them with me or 3 Feb., 1908.
return them back again for any further explanation
that he thinks is necessary ; they are then taken by
him to the Honourable Member.
43527. Do you do much of the discussion upon such
questions as reach you by notes, or is some considerable
part of it by personal discussion ?—Mostly by notes ;
it is only in difficult cases that sometimes the Deputy
Secretary and Secretary and I discuss the matter to-
gether. but where there is a fair consensus of opinion
it is all done by writing.
43528. Do those notes run to considerable length as
a rule ?—It depends a great deal on the subject; it
may be a very difficult subject that one is noting upon,
and then we have to note at very considerable length ;
it may be a quite simple subject and one is able to note
very shortly. I do not think there is much waste of
time in the Home Department.
43529. How do you acquaint yourself with the
educational system in other Governments ?—As far as
possible by visiting the Governments—by visiting the
different provinces—it would take some time to
acquaint oneself entirely with the educational systems
of all the provinces of India ; I should say five years.
43530. By that time, I suppose, the appointment so
far as the individual is concerned is finished ?—No,
the Director General is appointed as a permanent
officer. He was appointed originally on a three years’
term ; he was then confirmed by the Government of
India and, as far as I am aware, be will remain until he
retires from that position.
43531. Do you know whether the same thing applies
to other Directors General ?—The cases of other
Directors General are quite different, in that they
have always been selected from senior men of the de-
partment, and are therefore approaching the end of their
service. In the case of the Director General of Educa-
tion, he was brought out from home as a comparatively
young man, and presumably will hold the office for
20 years.
43532. Have you no official correspondence with the
1 provincial Governments?—No, that could only take
1 place through the Government of India—through the
Home Department.
43533. Do the provincial Governments refer fre-
quently to the Director General for advice ?—No, not
frequently. References have been made in the ten
months that I have held the appointment. In one
case where the Member for Education in Bombay
referred to me, he was perhaps referring to me more
as an ex-Director of Public Instruction in Bombay
than as Director General. As a rule, the Governments
do not refer to me. The Directors of Public Instruc-
tion occasionally refer to me, and 1 have a certain
amount of demi-official correspondence with them
which is not very frequent, and which merely refers to
questions of actual fact.
43534. Do provincial Governments ever write to the
Home Department of the Government of India and
say, “What does the Director General of Education
think of this proposal of ours ” ?—They never do that
in my experience.
43535. You consult with the local educational autho-
rities upon the various phases of their systems ; is that
after you have made some reference to the provincial
Government ?—No. To take the case in which I went
on tour this year. I stated to the Home Department
that I proposed to make a certain tour and that it
would take me to the headquarters of the Government
of the Punjab, the Government of the United Pro-
vinces, the Government of Bombay, and the Govern-
ment of Madras ; I gave the approximate dates and
the Home Department circulated a copy of my pro-
posed tour to the Local Governments. I then started
on the tour and placed myself in communication with
the Directors of Public Instruction in each place. In
each place I also saw the members of the Governments
who were responsible for education. At Lahore I saw
the Lieutenant-Governor and discussed two or three
educational matters with him. At Allahabad I saw
the Lieutenant-Governor and discussed education with
him, as also with the Director of Public Instruction.
In Madras I discussed educational matters with the
Member in charge of education. In Bombay, as a
G 2
33383