DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0058
52
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
Mr. E. Giles, matter of fact, I did discuss two or three things with
- the Honourable Member in charge of education and
3 Feb., 1908. with the Governor himself, but it was all distinctly
informal ; that is to say, if they wished to ask my
opinion on any subject I was there to give it.
43536. Did they in practice consult you a good deal ?
■—Certainly.
43537. Was the result of your tour that a certain
amount of correspondence and writing and formal con-
sultation and time has been saved ?—Yes, certainly.
43538. And questions which might otherwise have
entailed a lengthy argument on paper were able to be
settled on the spot ?—I have no power, of course, to
settle anything on the spot myself.
43539. I am talking of it from the educational point
of view only ?—From the educational point of view I
think the conferences were all of some use, and tended
towards a clearer understanding between the Govern-
ment of India and the provincial Government. I have
instanced a special case in reference to my visit to
Madras. In that special case I am certainly in a
position to understand the views of the Local Govern-
ment better than I was before, and I hope when this
question comes up the views of the Local Government
will be accepted by the Government of India ; they
will be modified to a certain extent by what I was able
to say to them, but I have had my mind modified to a
certain extent by what they were able to say to me.
43540. Do you think the appointment of Director
General is of advantage to the provincial Governments
as well as to the Government of India ?—I think the
appointment is of use, distinctly.
43541. You think, however, there ought not to be
any increase in the direction of authority being given
to the Director General?—No, he is not an officer who
should wield any authority ; he should be an adviser,
not in any way an officer with authority.
43542. Is there any danger of his acquiring adminis-
trative authority ?—I do not think there is the least
danger. Speaking personally, I should object alto-
gether to attempting to exercise any authority.
43543. It is merely a warning, a caveat, which you
put in ?—Yes. It was suggested in the questions that
there might be a tendency towards an officer in the
position of an Inspector or Director General gradually
assuming authority which he had no business to
assume. I do not think there is the least danger of
that.
43544. (Sir Frederic Lely.) Can you tell me whether
in his visits and consultations the Director General
has given attention to the co-operation of Revenue
Officers with the department ? —■ Certainly. In an
interview I had with Sir John Hewett and also with
-Sir Denzil Ibbetson I stated my opinion that the only
possible way in which education in the district could
proceed on sound lines was when the Educational and
the Revenue Departments were co-operating and work-
ing hand in hand.
43545. I am not referring so much to village schools
as to places of higher education—normal schools, high
schools, and colleges. As a matter of fact, does the
department get any help from Collectors and Commis-
sioners in watching their interests and maintaining a
good tone and discipline ?—As a rule, Commissioners
■and Collectors have not much time for looking after
high schools and normal colleges, but if they wished to
do so the department would be only too delighted to
have their assistance.
43546. Are they invited to do so or expected to do
so ?—If I may go back to the time when I was an in-
spector, I should not have ventured to invite the Com-
missioner to take an interest in a high school or college,
because I regarded him as the Head of the whole divi-
sion, and if he wished to take an interest in them he
would do so.
43547. But does Government ever expect or invite
him to take an interest in high schools or colleges ?—I
think the orders of the Government (speaking for the
Bombay Presidency) were more directed to the duties
of Revenue Officers in connection with primary educa-
tion than in connection with secondary education.
43548. Have you ever received communications sug-
gesting defects or improvements in colleges or high
schools from District Officers or from the Commis-
sioner ?—As regards colleges, the Collector of Ahme-
dabad is the President of the Board of the Gujarat
College and the Commissioner in Sind is the President
of the Board of the College at Karachi.
43549. Those are rather special cases ?—That covers
colleges.
43550. Has the District Officer any responsibility in
connection with the normal training college at Ahme-
dabad ?—No, but should he wish to take an interest in
it he can. I should think that every Revenue Officer
in Ahmedabad was well acquainted with the normal
college there. I do not think he is expected to take an
interest in it by the department or by the Government.
43551. Would it not be advisable in regard to every
educational institution to have a Board of Visitors
who should be expected to keep an eye on the course
of instruction and generally on the institution ?—As
regards our training colleges in the Bombay Presidency
the products of those training colleges are scattered all
over the district and the Revenue Officers have every
possible opportunity of seeing what those products are
like. I was 22 years an inspector of schools, and in
the whole of the time I never had a complaint made
by any Revenue Officer as to the condition of our
training colleges.
43552. That wras because perhaps they knew nothing
about them?—It is not for me as a subordinate Educa-
tional Officer to direct a Revenue Officer as to what he
should do ; if he wished to see the work of a training
college he would go and see it. Government could
hardly lay down rules for Revenue Officers that they
were to associate themselves with the management of
training colleges, and if the department was managing
them properly, it would be a pity to have two sets of
managers. A Visiting Board I should not object to,
but if you want the department to administer, you
must trust it to administer.
43553. The only question is whether in a matter so
closely connected with the people such as education, it
is not advisable to enlist the help of the officers who
are also in other matters most closely connected with
the 'people ?—I should have been delighted to have
myself, say, the Collector, and possibly even the Com-
missioner—though I do not think the Commissioner
would ever have found the time—as members of a
Board of Visitors to the normal college.
43554. Is your opinion that you have no objection,
but you do not see any particular need for it ?—I lived
eighteen years in Ahmedabad side by side with the
Collector and Commissioner and they never expressed
to me any view one way or the other ; I knew them all
personally very well.
43555. They practically ignored these institutions ?
—I would not say that. I have been all over the
training college at'Ahmedabad with one of the Col-
lectors certainly ; I cannot say at the moment whether
I have been there with more than one.
43556. But they did not recognise any responsibility
in connection with them ?—No, they had no responsi-
bility in the matter.
43557. You mention the desirability of the Govern-
ment of India facilitating local developments and
getting more into touch with local conditions. Has
there been of late any corresponding effort on the part
of Local Governments to consult local feeling and
enlist local help in the matter of education ? What
would be your previous experience in Bombay?-—As
far as possible we consulted local opinion. For
instance, before we devised our technical developments
we got together a conference of all the people who we
thought could give us any wise advice.
43558. During the last few years a scheme for
introducing agricultural education has been intro-
duced ; that is as closely connected with the welfare
of the people as almost any matter that could be
mentioned. When that scheme was being framed
were the District Boards approached for their opinion
or advice ?—I cannot tell you because the scheme of
agricultural education was formulated by the Agricul-
tural Department, not the Educational Department.
43559. I am speaking of the introduction of village
gardens and the introduction of agriculture as a
subject in the normal training school and so on ?—I
am afraid that that was a good deal dictated to us by
the Government of India.
43560. But when it came down to you, did you ‘take
no steps to ascertain the opinion of the District
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE:
Mr. E. Giles, matter of fact, I did discuss two or three things with
- the Honourable Member in charge of education and
3 Feb., 1908. with the Governor himself, but it was all distinctly
informal ; that is to say, if they wished to ask my
opinion on any subject I was there to give it.
43536. Did they in practice consult you a good deal ?
■—Certainly.
43537. Was the result of your tour that a certain
amount of correspondence and writing and formal con-
sultation and time has been saved ?—Yes, certainly.
43538. And questions which might otherwise have
entailed a lengthy argument on paper were able to be
settled on the spot ?—I have no power, of course, to
settle anything on the spot myself.
43539. I am talking of it from the educational point
of view only ?—From the educational point of view I
think the conferences were all of some use, and tended
towards a clearer understanding between the Govern-
ment of India and the provincial Government. I have
instanced a special case in reference to my visit to
Madras. In that special case I am certainly in a
position to understand the views of the Local Govern-
ment better than I was before, and I hope when this
question comes up the views of the Local Government
will be accepted by the Government of India ; they
will be modified to a certain extent by what I was able
to say to them, but I have had my mind modified to a
certain extent by what they were able to say to me.
43540. Do you think the appointment of Director
General is of advantage to the provincial Governments
as well as to the Government of India ?—I think the
appointment is of use, distinctly.
43541. You think, however, there ought not to be
any increase in the direction of authority being given
to the Director General?—No, he is not an officer who
should wield any authority ; he should be an adviser,
not in any way an officer with authority.
43542. Is there any danger of his acquiring adminis-
trative authority ?—I do not think there is the least
danger. Speaking personally, I should object alto-
gether to attempting to exercise any authority.
43543. It is merely a warning, a caveat, which you
put in ?—Yes. It was suggested in the questions that
there might be a tendency towards an officer in the
position of an Inspector or Director General gradually
assuming authority which he had no business to
assume. I do not think there is the least danger of
that.
43544. (Sir Frederic Lely.) Can you tell me whether
in his visits and consultations the Director General
has given attention to the co-operation of Revenue
Officers with the department ? —■ Certainly. In an
interview I had with Sir John Hewett and also with
-Sir Denzil Ibbetson I stated my opinion that the only
possible way in which education in the district could
proceed on sound lines was when the Educational and
the Revenue Departments were co-operating and work-
ing hand in hand.
43545. I am not referring so much to village schools
as to places of higher education—normal schools, high
schools, and colleges. As a matter of fact, does the
department get any help from Collectors and Commis-
sioners in watching their interests and maintaining a
good tone and discipline ?—As a rule, Commissioners
■and Collectors have not much time for looking after
high schools and normal colleges, but if they wished to
do so the department would be only too delighted to
have their assistance.
43546. Are they invited to do so or expected to do
so ?—If I may go back to the time when I was an in-
spector, I should not have ventured to invite the Com-
missioner to take an interest in a high school or college,
because I regarded him as the Head of the whole divi-
sion, and if he wished to take an interest in them he
would do so.
43547. But does Government ever expect or invite
him to take an interest in high schools or colleges ?—I
think the orders of the Government (speaking for the
Bombay Presidency) were more directed to the duties
of Revenue Officers in connection with primary educa-
tion than in connection with secondary education.
43548. Have you ever received communications sug-
gesting defects or improvements in colleges or high
schools from District Officers or from the Commis-
sioner ?—As regards colleges, the Collector of Ahme-
dabad is the President of the Board of the Gujarat
College and the Commissioner in Sind is the President
of the Board of the College at Karachi.
43549. Those are rather special cases ?—That covers
colleges.
43550. Has the District Officer any responsibility in
connection with the normal training college at Ahme-
dabad ?—No, but should he wish to take an interest in
it he can. I should think that every Revenue Officer
in Ahmedabad was well acquainted with the normal
college there. I do not think he is expected to take an
interest in it by the department or by the Government.
43551. Would it not be advisable in regard to every
educational institution to have a Board of Visitors
who should be expected to keep an eye on the course
of instruction and generally on the institution ?—As
regards our training colleges in the Bombay Presidency
the products of those training colleges are scattered all
over the district and the Revenue Officers have every
possible opportunity of seeing what those products are
like. I was 22 years an inspector of schools, and in
the whole of the time I never had a complaint made
by any Revenue Officer as to the condition of our
training colleges.
43552. That wras because perhaps they knew nothing
about them?—It is not for me as a subordinate Educa-
tional Officer to direct a Revenue Officer as to what he
should do ; if he wished to see the work of a training
college he would go and see it. Government could
hardly lay down rules for Revenue Officers that they
were to associate themselves with the management of
training colleges, and if the department was managing
them properly, it would be a pity to have two sets of
managers. A Visiting Board I should not object to,
but if you want the department to administer, you
must trust it to administer.
43553. The only question is whether in a matter so
closely connected with the people such as education, it
is not advisable to enlist the help of the officers who
are also in other matters most closely connected with
the 'people ?—I should have been delighted to have
myself, say, the Collector, and possibly even the Com-
missioner—though I do not think the Commissioner
would ever have found the time—as members of a
Board of Visitors to the normal college.
43554. Is your opinion that you have no objection,
but you do not see any particular need for it ?—I lived
eighteen years in Ahmedabad side by side with the
Collector and Commissioner and they never expressed
to me any view one way or the other ; I knew them all
personally very well.
43555. They practically ignored these institutions ?
—I would not say that. I have been all over the
training college at'Ahmedabad with one of the Col-
lectors certainly ; I cannot say at the moment whether
I have been there with more than one.
43556. But they did not recognise any responsibility
in connection with them ?—No, they had no responsi-
bility in the matter.
43557. You mention the desirability of the Govern-
ment of India facilitating local developments and
getting more into touch with local conditions. Has
there been of late any corresponding effort on the part
of Local Governments to consult local feeling and
enlist local help in the matter of education ? What
would be your previous experience in Bombay?-—As
far as possible we consulted local opinion. For
instance, before we devised our technical developments
we got together a conference of all the people who we
thought could give us any wise advice.
43558. During the last few years a scheme for
introducing agricultural education has been intro-
duced ; that is as closely connected with the welfare
of the people as almost any matter that could be
mentioned. When that scheme was being framed
were the District Boards approached for their opinion
or advice ?—I cannot tell you because the scheme of
agricultural education was formulated by the Agricul-
tural Department, not the Educational Department.
43559. I am speaking of the introduction of village
gardens and the introduction of agriculture as a
subject in the normal training school and so on ?—I
am afraid that that was a good deal dictated to us by
the Government of India.
43560. But when it came down to you, did you ‘take
no steps to ascertain the opinion of the District