DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0075
EOYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION.
69
other Local Administrations are asked whether they
agree to accept the suggestion or not. It is gene-
rally put in one circular, with a mere verbal
alteration in the matter of address.
43929. With regard to cases which concern your
department—take the case of petroleum ; I under-
stand there is no petroleum produced in the United
Provinces ; would you think it necessary, knowing
there was no petroleum produced in the United
Provinces, to send a circular to the United Pro-
vinces Government for their opinion ?—In that case
a differentiation would be made.
43930. We have been told by one or two Local
Governments that no differentiation is made?—
Undoubtedly in that case a differentiation would
be made.
43931. May we take it that care is taken in
your department to see that that differentiation is
made?—Yes ; it very seldom arises, but care is
taken.
43932. When did the Secretary of State decline
to agree to the proposal of the Government of
India in favour of delegation to Local Govern-
ments of power to grant leases in respect of
precious stones ?—It was when the present mining
rules were issued in 1899.
43933. With regard to the purchase of stores you
say “ A proposal has been sanctioned by the Sec-
retary of State giving the Heads of scientific
Departments power to purchase stores direct from
manufacturers outside India ” ; does that cover
the Education Department?—It would, in regard
to apparatus for use in institutions such as tech-
nical institutes and the like.
43934. And Medical Departments ? — Yes ; all
scientific departments which require to purchase
instruments are allowed to purchase direct from
home.
43935. With regard to reports from maritime
provinces on trade and customs administration and
so on, you say they are “ furnished by the Local
Government concerned,” I suppose you mean, fur-
nished to the Secretary of State?—They go to the
Secretary of .State ; the Local Governments send
them home.
43936. Do you think that they are necessary?—I
do.
43937. For instance, the annual return of the
working of the Merchandise Marks Act?—Yes ; it
is very important to know how the Act is being
worked, and to see that things are done correctly.
43938. Has the uniform set of rules which you
intend to issue to Local Governments under the
Indian Petroleum Act been determined upon after
consultation with the Local Governments?—Yes.
43939. And in the same way with regard to the
Indian Mines Act, have the Local Governments
been taken into consultation as to the rules issued 1
—Yes ; the Local Governments were taken into
consultation ; and the actual section of the Mines
Act, which enables Government to frame rules,
prescribes that the rules shall be published for
general objection by private persons as well ; so
that Local Governments and the mining industry
are both consulted before such rules are framed.
43940. Has the creation of the Railway Board
increased or decreased the work of your depart-
ment?—The Railway Board was created pari passu
with the creation of my department, so that it is
impossible to answer that question, as we were
brought into existence together.
43941. I know that a committee has just reported
on the Railway Board, but do you think that,
speaking generally, the Commerce and Industry
Department has delegated to the Railway Board
as much freedom of action as is necessary?—It is
a very wide question to answer. When the Rail-
way Board was constituted, a committee met to
consider the powers which should be exercised by
the Board. These powers have in some matters
been extended, and any further modification of
the powers would depend a good deal upon the
actual working of the Railway Board. We do not
interfere, of course, in technical matters; I am
talking about administrative matters.
43942. In answer to Mr. Meyer you said that
five years was the maximum period of tenure of
office by any officer in the Secretariat ?—Ordinarily.
/Three years is the present prescribed rule.
43943. That I understand refers to the tenure
of office in the Secretariat of the Government of
India?—That is what I referred to in my answer.
43944. What has been your own length of
tenure of office here?—‘I officiated last year for
nine months, and I have now just joined, a fort-
night ago.
43945. What is the tenure of office of the
Honourable Member in your department ?—The
Member is appointed for five years.
43946. You think that five years is the average
tenure of office of any one individual member?—
Of'the particular office; that would be the maxi-
mum.
43947. Not the retention of the particular office,
but the tenure of service in the Secretariat of the
Government of India ?—That of course I should
have to modify. You might get a man who
had been Under-Secretary for three years ;
after five or 10 or 15 years’ service he might go
back as Secretary, and might be Secretary for
four or five years, and he might again revert to
work in the provinces and come in as Honourable
Member.
43948. Without dealing with probabilities or pos-
sibilities, what is the general practice ; would you
say that the general life of a member of the
Secretariat of the Government of India is limited
to five years’ experience?—-I could not say that.
43949. What would you put as the general
length of his experience in the Secretariat of the
Government of India?—That would be a very
difficult question to answer
43950. Nearer ten than five?—Nearer five than
ten, I should think. Taking it all round, I
should say probably five would cover the average.
You might have men with very much more pro-
longed spells of office, but I should say that, taking
everybody all round, five years would cover the
average.
43951. (Sir Frederic Lely.) With reference to
the qualifications of the Honourable Member at
the head of the department in the Secretariat,
would you not say that the headship of a depart-
ment requires not so much expert knowledge as
general administrative experience ?—General ad-
ministrative experience, of course.
43952. The expert knowledge is possessed by
specialists under the department?—Yes.
43953. That is in fact the chief safeguard
against a narrow departmentalism ?—Yes ; but at
the same time it is desirable that the man ap-
pointed should have some experience in dealing
with the more important matters ; the main re-
quirement is administrative experience and know-
ledge.
43954. (Mr. Dutt.) In some provinces officers
have been appointed to make enquiries with regard
to existing industries and also to see in what way
they could be helped. Is your department in any
way concerned in collating that information ?—-It
will eventually be employed in collating the in-
formation. The view I personally have taken
whilst in the department has been that we should
leave the Local Governments as far as possible to
their own devices ; the practice in the past has
too often been to call for reports on this particular
matter ; voluminous reports were called for about
1888-89, and the industries and everything con-
nected with them got buried in those papers.
What I hold is that we should give Local Govern-
ments a free hand in pushing these industries ; do
not overwhelm them by making them submit
reports and telling us everything they do ; a cer-
tain amount of collation will undoubtedly take
place later on.
43955. Have you been in correspondence with
the Local Governments with regard to the en-
quiries they have been making?—We have not
been in correspondence to any great extent, merely
ascertaining the fact that they are taking the
matter up; we have not laid down any particular
Mr. B.
Robertson.
3 Apr., 1908.
69
other Local Administrations are asked whether they
agree to accept the suggestion or not. It is gene-
rally put in one circular, with a mere verbal
alteration in the matter of address.
43929. With regard to cases which concern your
department—take the case of petroleum ; I under-
stand there is no petroleum produced in the United
Provinces ; would you think it necessary, knowing
there was no petroleum produced in the United
Provinces, to send a circular to the United Pro-
vinces Government for their opinion ?—In that case
a differentiation would be made.
43930. We have been told by one or two Local
Governments that no differentiation is made?—
Undoubtedly in that case a differentiation would
be made.
43931. May we take it that care is taken in
your department to see that that differentiation is
made?—Yes ; it very seldom arises, but care is
taken.
43932. When did the Secretary of State decline
to agree to the proposal of the Government of
India in favour of delegation to Local Govern-
ments of power to grant leases in respect of
precious stones ?—It was when the present mining
rules were issued in 1899.
43933. With regard to the purchase of stores you
say “ A proposal has been sanctioned by the Sec-
retary of State giving the Heads of scientific
Departments power to purchase stores direct from
manufacturers outside India ” ; does that cover
the Education Department?—It would, in regard
to apparatus for use in institutions such as tech-
nical institutes and the like.
43934. And Medical Departments ? — Yes ; all
scientific departments which require to purchase
instruments are allowed to purchase direct from
home.
43935. With regard to reports from maritime
provinces on trade and customs administration and
so on, you say they are “ furnished by the Local
Government concerned,” I suppose you mean, fur-
nished to the Secretary of State?—They go to the
Secretary of .State ; the Local Governments send
them home.
43936. Do you think that they are necessary?—I
do.
43937. For instance, the annual return of the
working of the Merchandise Marks Act?—Yes ; it
is very important to know how the Act is being
worked, and to see that things are done correctly.
43938. Has the uniform set of rules which you
intend to issue to Local Governments under the
Indian Petroleum Act been determined upon after
consultation with the Local Governments?—Yes.
43939. And in the same way with regard to the
Indian Mines Act, have the Local Governments
been taken into consultation as to the rules issued 1
—Yes ; the Local Governments were taken into
consultation ; and the actual section of the Mines
Act, which enables Government to frame rules,
prescribes that the rules shall be published for
general objection by private persons as well ; so
that Local Governments and the mining industry
are both consulted before such rules are framed.
43940. Has the creation of the Railway Board
increased or decreased the work of your depart-
ment?—The Railway Board was created pari passu
with the creation of my department, so that it is
impossible to answer that question, as we were
brought into existence together.
43941. I know that a committee has just reported
on the Railway Board, but do you think that,
speaking generally, the Commerce and Industry
Department has delegated to the Railway Board
as much freedom of action as is necessary?—It is
a very wide question to answer. When the Rail-
way Board was constituted, a committee met to
consider the powers which should be exercised by
the Board. These powers have in some matters
been extended, and any further modification of
the powers would depend a good deal upon the
actual working of the Railway Board. We do not
interfere, of course, in technical matters; I am
talking about administrative matters.
43942. In answer to Mr. Meyer you said that
five years was the maximum period of tenure of
office by any officer in the Secretariat ?—Ordinarily.
/Three years is the present prescribed rule.
43943. That I understand refers to the tenure
of office in the Secretariat of the Government of
India?—That is what I referred to in my answer.
43944. What has been your own length of
tenure of office here?—‘I officiated last year for
nine months, and I have now just joined, a fort-
night ago.
43945. What is the tenure of office of the
Honourable Member in your department ?—The
Member is appointed for five years.
43946. You think that five years is the average
tenure of office of any one individual member?—
Of'the particular office; that would be the maxi-
mum.
43947. Not the retention of the particular office,
but the tenure of service in the Secretariat of the
Government of India ?—That of course I should
have to modify. You might get a man who
had been Under-Secretary for three years ;
after five or 10 or 15 years’ service he might go
back as Secretary, and might be Secretary for
four or five years, and he might again revert to
work in the provinces and come in as Honourable
Member.
43948. Without dealing with probabilities or pos-
sibilities, what is the general practice ; would you
say that the general life of a member of the
Secretariat of the Government of India is limited
to five years’ experience?—-I could not say that.
43949. What would you put as the general
length of his experience in the Secretariat of the
Government of India?—That would be a very
difficult question to answer
43950. Nearer ten than five?—Nearer five than
ten, I should think. Taking it all round, I
should say probably five would cover the average.
You might have men with very much more pro-
longed spells of office, but I should say that, taking
everybody all round, five years would cover the
average.
43951. (Sir Frederic Lely.) With reference to
the qualifications of the Honourable Member at
the head of the department in the Secretariat,
would you not say that the headship of a depart-
ment requires not so much expert knowledge as
general administrative experience ?—General ad-
ministrative experience, of course.
43952. The expert knowledge is possessed by
specialists under the department?—Yes.
43953. That is in fact the chief safeguard
against a narrow departmentalism ?—Yes ; but at
the same time it is desirable that the man ap-
pointed should have some experience in dealing
with the more important matters ; the main re-
quirement is administrative experience and know-
ledge.
43954. (Mr. Dutt.) In some provinces officers
have been appointed to make enquiries with regard
to existing industries and also to see in what way
they could be helped. Is your department in any
way concerned in collating that information ?—-It
will eventually be employed in collating the in-
formation. The view I personally have taken
whilst in the department has been that we should
leave the Local Governments as far as possible to
their own devices ; the practice in the past has
too often been to call for reports on this particular
matter ; voluminous reports were called for about
1888-89, and the industries and everything con-
nected with them got buried in those papers.
What I hold is that we should give Local Govern-
ments a free hand in pushing these industries ; do
not overwhelm them by making them submit
reports and telling us everything they do ; a cer-
tain amount of collation will undoubtedly take
place later on.
43955. Have you been in correspondence with
the Local Governments with regard to the en-
quiries they have been making?—We have not
been in correspondence to any great extent, merely
ascertaining the fact that they are taking the
matter up; we have not laid down any particular
Mr. B.
Robertson.
3 Apr., 1908.