DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0076
70
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Mr. B.
Robertson.
Apr., 1908.
lines on which they should proceed ; we have not
up to the present given them any general orders,
nor have we called upon them for reports.
43956. But the results of these enquiries will
eventually be communicated to the Government of
India?—Yes, and the Government of India un-
doubtedly will do what is needful in the way of
making suggestions.
43957. (Mr. Hichens.) With regard to railways
again, it was represented to us in Bombay by a
certain witness that it would be advisable if the
Local Government had the power to sanction and
control the building of light feeder lines. What
would your view be about that?—The view I hold
is that there is really no objection to their sanc-
tioning and controlling the construction and
management of light feeder lines, provided you
are absolutely certain that it is a light feeder
line. The difficulty that has arisen on some
occasions is this ; a line is thrown out as a light
feeder line, perhaps on rather loose conditions ;
10 years elapse, and it is found to be on a track
which is a very probable main line ; then you are
tied up with all manner of troubles and difficul-
ties. I think that with a Railway Board con-
trolling the direction of railways throughout
India, it would be very advisable that, before
any such light feeder lines are constructed under
the authority of the Local Government, a reference
should be made to the Railway Board to guard
against complications such as I have indicated.
The Railway Board have access to previous pro-
posals which may have been made several years
ago for a through line, and a light feeder line
along what may be eventually a main line is a
very inconvenient thing.
43958. But in any case this light feeder line
might so develop traffic that it would ultimately
justify the construction of a main line?—That is
a matter that could not be foreseen, but you have
other cases which can be foreseen.
43959. Would it suffice in your opinion, suppos-
ing the Railway Board laid down the terms and
conditions under which they might resort to com-
pulsory expropriation?—That might perhaps be
sufficient.
43960. Would it be possible for them to do
that?—The term of years would certainly be a
very long one, and I question whether that would
be sufficient to do away with the necessity of some
sort of outside control.
43961. Would it suffice, for example, if they
said, “ You may sanction any light line you like,
provided that Government has the power to expro-
priate at the end of x number of years ” ?—The
difficulty is to fix the x number. It would have
to be a long period, and, that being so, it is
better to retain the power of sanction. The
reference would be a very slight one; all that
need be done is to ask “ Have you any objection
to this light feeder line being built ?” ; if there
was no objection, ft would go on ; in most cases
the light feeder lines would be bona fide light
feeders.
43962. Suppose that was done, would the De-
partment of Commerce and Industry still think it
necessary to inspect the line to see that it was
safe for passenger traffic, and supervise the con-
struction of the line?—It would be necessary to
have Government inspection in the interests of
the public.
43963. To take it one step further, would you
say the'same thing would be necessary in a Native
State ; suppose a line was being built there, would
it be necessary for the Government of India to
supervise it?—Yes, we do so, and I think it is
necessary.
43964. On what ground?—On the ground that
our general responsibility for the administration
of Native States extends to a matter of such im-
portance as the inspection of railways. All that
is necessary is that there should be efficient in-
spection.
43965. Would you apply the same to coal mines
or /factories?—We do not interfere with coal
mines or factories.
43966. On what grounds?—We leave them to
their own devices.
43967. Although safety of life and limb is in-
volved?—'It is, but in railways we have adopted
this policy in the wider interests of the public.
43968. (Mr. Meyer.) About this question of light
railways, has there not been discussion with the
Local Governments and the Secretary of State, on
the question of allowing the Local Governments
power to finance or guarantee light railways?—
Yes.
43969. And you have been considering a set of
simple rules that would give you the necessary
control in respect of the connection with main
lines and the possibility of future conversion
into main lines?—Yes, they are simple rules.
43970. Can you tell us how the matter stands at
present?—The matter has been unfortunately
rather hung up because of the question as to the
best method of attracting capital for such lines.
For instance, one proposal is a firm guarantee by
the Local Government; another which is con-
sidered the more likely to induce capital to come
forward is the offer of a rebate by the main line.
Between these two conflicting ideas as to which is
likely to induce capital to come forward, the rules
have been in suspense.
43971. It is necessary in such matters to have
absolute uniformity ; might you not try the firm
guarantee at one place and the rebate in another?
•—That is how it now stands ; the original idea
when I was here last year was that the best' and
most likely manner of attracting capital was to
pin your faith to the rebate. Since then I find
we have gone back to the idea of having an alter-
native firm guarantee.
43972. Your idea would ’be an alternative-
whichever the local people preferred?-—Yes.
43973. It has been put before us in some pro-
vinces that District Boards might be enabled to
levy a supplementary cess for railways, or have
the power of levying it, and to use the proceeds or
the potential asset it gave them, for the purpose
of guaranteeing small lines within their districts.
The matter has not been looked on, I think, with
favour by the Government of India as a whole,
but may I ask your personal opinion about it?—
I personally am in favour of the suggestion that
the District Boards should have this power.
43974. It was made a matter of complaint by
the Chief Commissioner of the North West
Frontier Province that he was obstructed by the
Telegraph Department. He wanted new tele-
graph stations opened for State purposes, and the
Telegraph Department declined to comply unless
they were supplied with a guarantee against loss.
Does that system meet with the approval of the
Commerce and Industry Department?—The ordin-
ary rule is that the Telegraph Department is a
commercial department which must primarily pay
its own way ; in the case of out-lying stations
such as there are in the North West Frontier
Province, the general rule is to ask the Local
Government to 'back up their belief in the neces-
sity of the new telegraph station by a guarantee
for five years ; at the end of the five years the
telegraph will continue, it is not to be pulled up
again. The guarantee for five years is more or
less equivalent to saying “ You must back your
opinion by being ,prepared to pay any loss for five
years.” So long as the Chief Commissioner of
the North West Frontier Province will do that,
there will be no difficulty.
43975. Are not all the Government funds in the-
North West Frontier Province imperial?—Yes.
43976. So that the guarantee is not material?—
No, in the North West Frontier Province there is
that distinction ; it is imperial.
43977. My impression is that some years ago
this matter was discussed, and the conclusion that
■was come to was that these guarantees were un-
desirable, and that if a telegraph office was neces-
sary for public purposes, the Telegraph Depart-
ment ought to construct it?—As far as I remember
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Mr. B.
Robertson.
Apr., 1908.
lines on which they should proceed ; we have not
up to the present given them any general orders,
nor have we called upon them for reports.
43956. But the results of these enquiries will
eventually be communicated to the Government of
India?—Yes, and the Government of India un-
doubtedly will do what is needful in the way of
making suggestions.
43957. (Mr. Hichens.) With regard to railways
again, it was represented to us in Bombay by a
certain witness that it would be advisable if the
Local Government had the power to sanction and
control the building of light feeder lines. What
would your view be about that?—The view I hold
is that there is really no objection to their sanc-
tioning and controlling the construction and
management of light feeder lines, provided you
are absolutely certain that it is a light feeder
line. The difficulty that has arisen on some
occasions is this ; a line is thrown out as a light
feeder line, perhaps on rather loose conditions ;
10 years elapse, and it is found to be on a track
which is a very probable main line ; then you are
tied up with all manner of troubles and difficul-
ties. I think that with a Railway Board con-
trolling the direction of railways throughout
India, it would be very advisable that, before
any such light feeder lines are constructed under
the authority of the Local Government, a reference
should be made to the Railway Board to guard
against complications such as I have indicated.
The Railway Board have access to previous pro-
posals which may have been made several years
ago for a through line, and a light feeder line
along what may be eventually a main line is a
very inconvenient thing.
43958. But in any case this light feeder line
might so develop traffic that it would ultimately
justify the construction of a main line?—That is
a matter that could not be foreseen, but you have
other cases which can be foreseen.
43959. Would it suffice in your opinion, suppos-
ing the Railway Board laid down the terms and
conditions under which they might resort to com-
pulsory expropriation?—That might perhaps be
sufficient.
43960. Would it be possible for them to do
that?—The term of years would certainly be a
very long one, and I question whether that would
be sufficient to do away with the necessity of some
sort of outside control.
43961. Would it suffice, for example, if they
said, “ You may sanction any light line you like,
provided that Government has the power to expro-
priate at the end of x number of years ” ?—The
difficulty is to fix the x number. It would have
to be a long period, and, that being so, it is
better to retain the power of sanction. The
reference would be a very slight one; all that
need be done is to ask “ Have you any objection
to this light feeder line being built ?” ; if there
was no objection, ft would go on ; in most cases
the light feeder lines would be bona fide light
feeders.
43962. Suppose that was done, would the De-
partment of Commerce and Industry still think it
necessary to inspect the line to see that it was
safe for passenger traffic, and supervise the con-
struction of the line?—It would be necessary to
have Government inspection in the interests of
the public.
43963. To take it one step further, would you
say the'same thing would be necessary in a Native
State ; suppose a line was being built there, would
it be necessary for the Government of India to
supervise it?—Yes, we do so, and I think it is
necessary.
43964. On what ground?—On the ground that
our general responsibility for the administration
of Native States extends to a matter of such im-
portance as the inspection of railways. All that
is necessary is that there should be efficient in-
spection.
43965. Would you apply the same to coal mines
or /factories?—We do not interfere with coal
mines or factories.
43966. On what grounds?—We leave them to
their own devices.
43967. Although safety of life and limb is in-
volved?—'It is, but in railways we have adopted
this policy in the wider interests of the public.
43968. (Mr. Meyer.) About this question of light
railways, has there not been discussion with the
Local Governments and the Secretary of State, on
the question of allowing the Local Governments
power to finance or guarantee light railways?—
Yes.
43969. And you have been considering a set of
simple rules that would give you the necessary
control in respect of the connection with main
lines and the possibility of future conversion
into main lines?—Yes, they are simple rules.
43970. Can you tell us how the matter stands at
present?—The matter has been unfortunately
rather hung up because of the question as to the
best method of attracting capital for such lines.
For instance, one proposal is a firm guarantee by
the Local Government; another which is con-
sidered the more likely to induce capital to come
forward is the offer of a rebate by the main line.
Between these two conflicting ideas as to which is
likely to induce capital to come forward, the rules
have been in suspense.
43971. It is necessary in such matters to have
absolute uniformity ; might you not try the firm
guarantee at one place and the rebate in another?
•—That is how it now stands ; the original idea
when I was here last year was that the best' and
most likely manner of attracting capital was to
pin your faith to the rebate. Since then I find
we have gone back to the idea of having an alter-
native firm guarantee.
43972. Your idea would ’be an alternative-
whichever the local people preferred?-—Yes.
43973. It has been put before us in some pro-
vinces that District Boards might be enabled to
levy a supplementary cess for railways, or have
the power of levying it, and to use the proceeds or
the potential asset it gave them, for the purpose
of guaranteeing small lines within their districts.
The matter has not been looked on, I think, with
favour by the Government of India as a whole,
but may I ask your personal opinion about it?—
I personally am in favour of the suggestion that
the District Boards should have this power.
43974. It was made a matter of complaint by
the Chief Commissioner of the North West
Frontier Province that he was obstructed by the
Telegraph Department. He wanted new tele-
graph stations opened for State purposes, and the
Telegraph Department declined to comply unless
they were supplied with a guarantee against loss.
Does that system meet with the approval of the
Commerce and Industry Department?—The ordin-
ary rule is that the Telegraph Department is a
commercial department which must primarily pay
its own way ; in the case of out-lying stations
such as there are in the North West Frontier
Province, the general rule is to ask the Local
Government to 'back up their belief in the neces-
sity of the new telegraph station by a guarantee
for five years ; at the end of the five years the
telegraph will continue, it is not to be pulled up
again. The guarantee for five years is more or
less equivalent to saying “ You must back your
opinion by being ,prepared to pay any loss for five
years.” So long as the Chief Commissioner of
the North West Frontier Province will do that,
there will be no difficulty.
43975. Are not all the Government funds in the-
North West Frontier Province imperial?—Yes.
43976. So that the guarantee is not material?—
No, in the North West Frontier Province there is
that distinction ; it is imperial.
43977. My impression is that some years ago
this matter was discussed, and the conclusion that
■was come to was that these guarantees were un-
desirable, and that if a telegraph office was neces-
sary for public purposes, the Telegraph Depart-
ment ought to construct it?—As far as I remember