DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0169
ROYAL COMMISSION UPON DECENTRALIZATION1!
163
has to correspond through the various Local
.Governments, it would often mean simply missing
the clue.
45435. So that there are reasons for his corre-
sponding direct with the officials under the Local
Government, but you hold that in those cases
the Local Government should be furnished with
copies of the correspondence?—I think so, cer-
tainly. One of the main reasons for having as
Director of Criminal Intelligence an officer of high
standing and experience, who has had to deal with
Local Governments and has had Secretariat experi-
ence, was that he would realise, more than any
ordinary departmental man would, what the
openings for friction are, and how desirable it is
to avoid them ; and the Local Governments also
would realise that his intentions were good, and
would exercise a certain amount of forbearance.
I was Census Commissioner myself for three years,
and I had occasion then to see very plainly what
susceptibilities there were to be regarded, and
how carefully one had to walk.
45436. You would allow that power not only to
the Director of Criminal Intelligence but to all
other Directors and Inspectors-General; you
would allow them all to correspond with subordi-
nates of the Local Governments, on condition of
their furnishing copies of that correspondence to
the Local Government?—Yes.
45437. (Chairman.) I understand that the prac-
tice hitherto has been to correspond unofficially ;
is that so?—That was arranged in the case of the
Director-General of Education, but, as a matter of
fact, ever since the year 1866, when the office of
Sanitary Commissioner with the Government of
India was created, the Sanitary Commissioner has
corresponded officially with provincial Sanitary
Commissioners.
45438. You propose now to change the system of
unofficial to official correspondence?—I think so.
I prefer official correspondence simply as a matter
of convenience ; unofficial correspondence comes
to be practically demi-official letters ; they are
kept in an untidy fashion, they are extremely likely
to be mislaid, and I do not see any force in the
distinction. Moreover on the unofficial system
there is greater opening for the impression that
the Imperial Officer is going behind the Local
Government.
45439. (Mr. Meyer.) What is the exact position
now in regard to the Sanitary Commissioner ; does
he correspond unofficially or officially?—The exact
position at present, I think, is that the Government
of Bombay has demurred to a decision passed last
year, reviving the original orders authorising him
to correspond officially on certain subjects ; but,
curiously enough, at the time when those orders
were passed, nobody knew about the earlier prac-
tice. All other Local Governments have accepted
the decision that correspondence should be official.
45440. In deference to the representations of the
Government of Bombay, and possibly of some other
Local Governments, did you withdraw the official
correspondence order and revert to the unofficial?
—No ; it is not quite like that. When the Sani-
tary Commissioner started originally, in 1866, he
was on terms of corresponding officially with the
provincial Sanitary Commissioners with a limita-
tion as to certain subjects, departmental subjects,
procedure, and so forth ; he was warned off
administrative questions. Then he was merged in
the Surgeon-General, or Director-General of the
Indian Medical Service. In 1904 the Sanitary
Commissioner was revived as a separate officer,
and then the question arose how his correspond-
ence was to be worked, and we followed the
precedent of the Director-General of Education,
overlooking entirely the earlier precedent in the
case of the man himself. That was why it was
made unofficial.
45441. But at this moment is the correspondence
unofficial or official?—It is official under protest
from Bombay ; I think that describes the position
correctly. No other Government has objected to
the correspondence being official.
45442. (Sir Frederic Lely.) Is ther? not a special
danger of official references degenerating into in-
structions, or being taken as such?—If the position
7 Apr., 1908.
Sir Herbert
Risley.
is defined, it seems to me that official correspond-
ence is less likely to degenerate into instructions
than unofficial. If you are corresponding officially
you know where you are; copies of the corre-
spondence can be sent to anybody. The great
thing, it appears to me, that you want to avoid is
the suggestion that these Advisory Officers are in
any way going behind the back of the Local
Government, and that is fai' more likely to be
avoided by plain straightforward official corre-
spondence than by any unofficial or demi-official
arrangement.
45443. (Mr. Dutt.) You are decidedly in favour of
enlarging the powers of Commissioners, but you do
not seem to approve of enlarging those powers on
the lines on which the Commissioner in Sind exer-
cises his powers?—That is so.
45444. You do not approve of a general Act of
delegation under which the Government may, by
Gazette notifications, transfer to the Commissioner,
oi' to lower officers, any legal powers which they
from time to time think advisable?—No, I do not.
45445. You think that when delegations are
required they ought to be made by amending Acts,
or a number of delegations might be made by one
amending Act?—You would pass an Act, I take
it, with a schedule attached to it. That Act with
its schedule would dispose of all your delegations
up to date. When you had cleared the ground in
that way, it would be an instruction to all the
legislating authorities and to the departments that
had to do with them, that they were to consider
in any particular Act what powers should be dele-
gated and to whom. Having made your clean
sweep by the original delegating Act, delegation
would go on in the ordinary course of business
in the usual way. That is my conception of it.
45446. But even if the Legislative Department
did not do that, it would be possible in a sub-
sequent yeqr, say, two or three years after the
first delegating Act, to pass a second one?—
Exactly ; and of course mistakes may be made. It
may be necessary to delegate some further power,
or it might be found that something had been
delegated which ought not to have been ; such
mistakes may have to be corrected by a subsequent
delegating Act.
45447. You say : “ If the scheme for separating
judicial and executive functions which is now under
consideration proves a success when tried experi-
mentally and is extended to the whole or the
greater part of the advanced provinces of Bengal
and Eastern Bengal and Assam, it will be neces-
sary to re-model the present sub-divisional system,
and to create executive sub-districts considerably
more extensive than the existing sub-divisions ” 1
—Yes.
45448. It has been suggested to us that the
administration in Bengal is less in touch with the
people than it is in Madras and other provinces,
because we have no circle officers, as they have in
Madras and Bombay, that is to say officers like
mamlatdars and tahsildars ; what do you say as
to that?—■ Owing to the Permanent Settlement
there is no subordinate revenue collecting agency in
Bengal.
45449. Do you think it is necessary to, appoint
Revenue Officers in circles within a sub-division
on the same lines as they are appointed in Madras,
and Bombay, so as to bring the executive adminis-
tration more in touch with the people ?—I think it
is quite possible that the necessity for doing that
may arise for independent reason's. When the
survey and record of rights comes to be extended
to the whole of Bengal and Eastern Bengal, it
will be necessary to find some means of keeping
that up to date, and the unit for keeping it up to-
date will most certainly have to be something con-
siderably smaller than a sub-division, so that if,
as I understand, it has been settled that the survey
and record of rights is to be extended to the whole
of those provinces, that of itself will necessarily
give the opportunity of creating these subordinate
circles. It will also bring the administration into
closer touch with the people.
45450. You say that if the constitution of District
Boards were improved they might serve a useful
purpose as organised consultative bodies to district
33383
X 2
163
has to correspond through the various Local
.Governments, it would often mean simply missing
the clue.
45435. So that there are reasons for his corre-
sponding direct with the officials under the Local
Government, but you hold that in those cases
the Local Government should be furnished with
copies of the correspondence?—I think so, cer-
tainly. One of the main reasons for having as
Director of Criminal Intelligence an officer of high
standing and experience, who has had to deal with
Local Governments and has had Secretariat experi-
ence, was that he would realise, more than any
ordinary departmental man would, what the
openings for friction are, and how desirable it is
to avoid them ; and the Local Governments also
would realise that his intentions were good, and
would exercise a certain amount of forbearance.
I was Census Commissioner myself for three years,
and I had occasion then to see very plainly what
susceptibilities there were to be regarded, and
how carefully one had to walk.
45436. You would allow that power not only to
the Director of Criminal Intelligence but to all
other Directors and Inspectors-General; you
would allow them all to correspond with subordi-
nates of the Local Governments, on condition of
their furnishing copies of that correspondence to
the Local Government?—Yes.
45437. (Chairman.) I understand that the prac-
tice hitherto has been to correspond unofficially ;
is that so?—That was arranged in the case of the
Director-General of Education, but, as a matter of
fact, ever since the year 1866, when the office of
Sanitary Commissioner with the Government of
India was created, the Sanitary Commissioner has
corresponded officially with provincial Sanitary
Commissioners.
45438. You propose now to change the system of
unofficial to official correspondence?—I think so.
I prefer official correspondence simply as a matter
of convenience ; unofficial correspondence comes
to be practically demi-official letters ; they are
kept in an untidy fashion, they are extremely likely
to be mislaid, and I do not see any force in the
distinction. Moreover on the unofficial system
there is greater opening for the impression that
the Imperial Officer is going behind the Local
Government.
45439. (Mr. Meyer.) What is the exact position
now in regard to the Sanitary Commissioner ; does
he correspond unofficially or officially?—The exact
position at present, I think, is that the Government
of Bombay has demurred to a decision passed last
year, reviving the original orders authorising him
to correspond officially on certain subjects ; but,
curiously enough, at the time when those orders
were passed, nobody knew about the earlier prac-
tice. All other Local Governments have accepted
the decision that correspondence should be official.
45440. In deference to the representations of the
Government of Bombay, and possibly of some other
Local Governments, did you withdraw the official
correspondence order and revert to the unofficial?
—No ; it is not quite like that. When the Sani-
tary Commissioner started originally, in 1866, he
was on terms of corresponding officially with the
provincial Sanitary Commissioners with a limita-
tion as to certain subjects, departmental subjects,
procedure, and so forth ; he was warned off
administrative questions. Then he was merged in
the Surgeon-General, or Director-General of the
Indian Medical Service. In 1904 the Sanitary
Commissioner was revived as a separate officer,
and then the question arose how his correspond-
ence was to be worked, and we followed the
precedent of the Director-General of Education,
overlooking entirely the earlier precedent in the
case of the man himself. That was why it was
made unofficial.
45441. But at this moment is the correspondence
unofficial or official?—It is official under protest
from Bombay ; I think that describes the position
correctly. No other Government has objected to
the correspondence being official.
45442. (Sir Frederic Lely.) Is ther? not a special
danger of official references degenerating into in-
structions, or being taken as such?—If the position
7 Apr., 1908.
Sir Herbert
Risley.
is defined, it seems to me that official correspond-
ence is less likely to degenerate into instructions
than unofficial. If you are corresponding officially
you know where you are; copies of the corre-
spondence can be sent to anybody. The great
thing, it appears to me, that you want to avoid is
the suggestion that these Advisory Officers are in
any way going behind the back of the Local
Government, and that is fai' more likely to be
avoided by plain straightforward official corre-
spondence than by any unofficial or demi-official
arrangement.
45443. (Mr. Dutt.) You are decidedly in favour of
enlarging the powers of Commissioners, but you do
not seem to approve of enlarging those powers on
the lines on which the Commissioner in Sind exer-
cises his powers?—That is so.
45444. You do not approve of a general Act of
delegation under which the Government may, by
Gazette notifications, transfer to the Commissioner,
oi' to lower officers, any legal powers which they
from time to time think advisable?—No, I do not.
45445. You think that when delegations are
required they ought to be made by amending Acts,
or a number of delegations might be made by one
amending Act?—You would pass an Act, I take
it, with a schedule attached to it. That Act with
its schedule would dispose of all your delegations
up to date. When you had cleared the ground in
that way, it would be an instruction to all the
legislating authorities and to the departments that
had to do with them, that they were to consider
in any particular Act what powers should be dele-
gated and to whom. Having made your clean
sweep by the original delegating Act, delegation
would go on in the ordinary course of business
in the usual way. That is my conception of it.
45446. But even if the Legislative Department
did not do that, it would be possible in a sub-
sequent yeqr, say, two or three years after the
first delegating Act, to pass a second one?—
Exactly ; and of course mistakes may be made. It
may be necessary to delegate some further power,
or it might be found that something had been
delegated which ought not to have been ; such
mistakes may have to be corrected by a subsequent
delegating Act.
45447. You say : “ If the scheme for separating
judicial and executive functions which is now under
consideration proves a success when tried experi-
mentally and is extended to the whole or the
greater part of the advanced provinces of Bengal
and Eastern Bengal and Assam, it will be neces-
sary to re-model the present sub-divisional system,
and to create executive sub-districts considerably
more extensive than the existing sub-divisions ” 1
—Yes.
45448. It has been suggested to us that the
administration in Bengal is less in touch with the
people than it is in Madras and other provinces,
because we have no circle officers, as they have in
Madras and Bombay, that is to say officers like
mamlatdars and tahsildars ; what do you say as
to that?—■ Owing to the Permanent Settlement
there is no subordinate revenue collecting agency in
Bengal.
45449. Do you think it is necessary to, appoint
Revenue Officers in circles within a sub-division
on the same lines as they are appointed in Madras,
and Bombay, so as to bring the executive adminis-
tration more in touch with the people ?—I think it
is quite possible that the necessity for doing that
may arise for independent reason's. When the
survey and record of rights comes to be extended
to the whole of Bengal and Eastern Bengal, it
will be necessary to find some means of keeping
that up to date, and the unit for keeping it up to-
date will most certainly have to be something con-
siderably smaller than a sub-division, so that if,
as I understand, it has been settled that the survey
and record of rights is to be extended to the whole
of those provinces, that of itself will necessarily
give the opportunity of creating these subordinate
circles. It will also bring the administration into
closer touch with the people.
45450. You say that if the constitution of District
Boards were improved they might serve a useful
purpose as organised consultative bodies to district
33383
X 2