DOI Page / Citation link:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0170
164
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Sir Herbert
Risley.
'I Apr., 1908.
officers in the place of Advisory 'Councils. Do you
suggest that District Boards might perform the
functions of Advisory Councils?—That is my view,
assuming the Board to be re-constructed.
45451. It is your opinion that the Act would have
to be changed a little in order that a District
Board might perform those functions?—Yes. My
opinion is that the entire system of local govern-
ment in Bengal requires re-construction from the
bottom. I do not know whether that is relevant
here, but the whole thing hangs together.
45452. If a District Board has to perform the
functions of an Advisory Council would the present
Act have to be modified in order to make that
legally part of their duties?—The Act, I take it,
would define their duties with reference to the
subject-matter with which it deals ; it would define
their functions in relation to the Bocal Boards
and such other units as there happened to be. My
idea is that the District Board, having been created
for the purposes of loc.fi government, might be
used by the Collector for purposes somewhat be-
yond those functions, but it would not be possible
at present to put these advisory functions into any
Act; you could not define them ; they would have
to be worked but experimentally.
45453. So that at present you would utilize the
members informally and without any sanction of
law ?—Exactly ; when the size of the Board has
been reduced and its composition made more
representative.
45454. And after a certain degree of experience?
Then would come the time for considering how far
you should give them a legal status in respect of
their advisory functions.
45455. With regard to the question of limiting
the present rights of appeal you say that you
agree with the proposals made in the note of the
7th November, 1907 ?—I am afraid I was out of
order in referring to that note, which I supposed
to be in the possession of the Commission.
45456. Would you prescribe some definite rules
for all Local Governments or would you allow
Local Governments to make their own rules?
Some Local Governments have expressed the
opinion that they do not urge any large altera-
tions in the existing rights of appeal ; if that be
so, would you force these rules upon them or would
you leave them to dispose of matters as they
thought best?—•! put in a tcopy of the rules as
existing and as proposed. I think it might be
open to Local Governments to mitigate the rules
in any particular case.
45457. So that you would leave a certain
amount of discretion to all Local Governments ?—■
Yes.
45458. And you would not force rules upon Local
Governments if they did not want them ?—No.
45459. Then I think you want to tell us some-
thing with regard to your ideas as to District
Boards and Local Boards ?—In my view the group-
ing of villages in Bengal should be the basis of
the whole scheme of local self-government, and I
■should like to see all the advanced districts
divided into a number of unions—villages grouped
into unions—each union to be governed by a small
elected council, somewhat on the model of the old
Indian panchayat (which was not necessarily five
people) and that these councils should have the
powers of permissive taxation, powers of borrow-
ing, small sanitary powers, and small civil and
criminal jurisdiction to be exercised by benches.
You would not perhaps get all that way at once
but you might begin with the Prussian system, of
village arbitrators (Schiedsmanner) or something
of that sort. These unions would be grouped
under the Local Board, and the Local Board
would be the main governing unit, and do all the
executive work. Over them again you would
have a District Board elected from among the
Local Boards, but not a large body ; a small body
of ten or twelve people would be sufficient to
perform the general functions reserved for the
District Board. They would settle the budget as
t Vide Appendix XIII.
between the Local Boards, they would decide ques-
tions of roads and bridges and things of that sort,
which affected several Local Boards; they would
also determine how the District Engineer’s work
was to be divided amongst the Local Boards.
They would be merely a supervising and con-
trolling authority. If started on those lines my
hope is that in course of time those bodies will
grow to be useful advisory bodies both for local
purposes and other purposes as well. That is the
general idea.
45460. (Mr. Hichens.) You refer to a despatch
from the Court of Directors to the Government of
India dated the 10th December, 1834. That
despatch, after pointing out that the superintend-
ence, direction and control of the civil and mili-
tary Government of all the said territories shall
be vested in the said Governor-General in Council,
goes on to point out that it would be incumbent
upon the Government of India to draw, with much
discrimination and reflection, the correct line be-
tween the functions which properly belonged to
the Local and subordinate Governments, and
those which belonged to the general Government;
in other words may I take it that this despatch
practically invites the Government of India to lay
down a policy?—Yes, I think so.
45461. I do not want to bother about the policy
which was laid down then, or the various succes-
sions of policy, but I should like to know what
the policy of the Government of India is to-day ?—
On general lines that is the policy which the
Government of India aims at now.
45462. But what is it? The Government of
India were invited to lay down a policy; what
policy did they lay down ?—What I understand
this despatch to mean is that in any particular
case you should discriminate and reflect carefully
as to the line which divides the functions of a
Local and subordinate Government and a general
Government.
45463. Then may I take it that to-day the
position is that the Government of India have
not laid down in general terms their policy in
relation to the Local . Governments, but they
decide each question as it comes upon its merits?
—Quite so. It is, I believe, impossible for any-
body to lay down any general proposition which
can be applied.
45464. You mean to say it is impossible really
to put it in more specific terms?—There is no
formula in the world that I am acquainted with
which states what functions belong to a Local and
subordinate Government, as such, and what belong
to a general Government, as such. In dealing
with any particular question, whatever it may be,
police administration, education, or what not, you
bear in mind that the Government of India is a
general Government which wants to look at large
questions of policy, and that the Local Govern-
ment is dealing with details, and you endeavour
to shape your orders accordingly.
45465. One must be content with a very broad
definition, and that definition must be, of course,
liable to exceptions ; is the principle on which the
Government of India goes that they deal with
matters of principle and the Local Government
deal with matters of detail ?—Yes ; but a particu-
lar detail may involve a principle, and may for
that reason require the Government of India to
intervene, however reluctantly.
45466. In other words the Government of India
lay down the general principles, and the Local
Government is responsible for carrying them out?
-—Yes ; but 'I should like to point out that you
have not here the guiding factor which you have
in certain other cases of Federal Governments.
Where you have a Federal Government, which
consists of so many Sovereign States, those
Sovereign States gave up this, that and the other
defined functions and kept everything else, which
makes the matter so much clearer. That is not
the case in India. The Local Governments never
were sovereign and independent. From 1833 up
to the time of the iStrachey decentralizations, the
Government of India had everything in their own
hands, and no Local Government could create the
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Sir Herbert
Risley.
'I Apr., 1908.
officers in the place of Advisory 'Councils. Do you
suggest that District Boards might perform the
functions of Advisory Councils?—That is my view,
assuming the Board to be re-constructed.
45451. It is your opinion that the Act would have
to be changed a little in order that a District
Board might perform those functions?—Yes. My
opinion is that the entire system of local govern-
ment in Bengal requires re-construction from the
bottom. I do not know whether that is relevant
here, but the whole thing hangs together.
45452. If a District Board has to perform the
functions of an Advisory Council would the present
Act have to be modified in order to make that
legally part of their duties?—The Act, I take it,
would define their duties with reference to the
subject-matter with which it deals ; it would define
their functions in relation to the Bocal Boards
and such other units as there happened to be. My
idea is that the District Board, having been created
for the purposes of loc.fi government, might be
used by the Collector for purposes somewhat be-
yond those functions, but it would not be possible
at present to put these advisory functions into any
Act; you could not define them ; they would have
to be worked but experimentally.
45453. So that at present you would utilize the
members informally and without any sanction of
law ?—Exactly ; when the size of the Board has
been reduced and its composition made more
representative.
45454. And after a certain degree of experience?
Then would come the time for considering how far
you should give them a legal status in respect of
their advisory functions.
45455. With regard to the question of limiting
the present rights of appeal you say that you
agree with the proposals made in the note of the
7th November, 1907 ?—I am afraid I was out of
order in referring to that note, which I supposed
to be in the possession of the Commission.
45456. Would you prescribe some definite rules
for all Local Governments or would you allow
Local Governments to make their own rules?
Some Local Governments have expressed the
opinion that they do not urge any large altera-
tions in the existing rights of appeal ; if that be
so, would you force these rules upon them or would
you leave them to dispose of matters as they
thought best?—•! put in a tcopy of the rules as
existing and as proposed. I think it might be
open to Local Governments to mitigate the rules
in any particular case.
45457. So that you would leave a certain
amount of discretion to all Local Governments ?—■
Yes.
45458. And you would not force rules upon Local
Governments if they did not want them ?—No.
45459. Then I think you want to tell us some-
thing with regard to your ideas as to District
Boards and Local Boards ?—In my view the group-
ing of villages in Bengal should be the basis of
the whole scheme of local self-government, and I
■should like to see all the advanced districts
divided into a number of unions—villages grouped
into unions—each union to be governed by a small
elected council, somewhat on the model of the old
Indian panchayat (which was not necessarily five
people) and that these councils should have the
powers of permissive taxation, powers of borrow-
ing, small sanitary powers, and small civil and
criminal jurisdiction to be exercised by benches.
You would not perhaps get all that way at once
but you might begin with the Prussian system, of
village arbitrators (Schiedsmanner) or something
of that sort. These unions would be grouped
under the Local Board, and the Local Board
would be the main governing unit, and do all the
executive work. Over them again you would
have a District Board elected from among the
Local Boards, but not a large body ; a small body
of ten or twelve people would be sufficient to
perform the general functions reserved for the
District Board. They would settle the budget as
t Vide Appendix XIII.
between the Local Boards, they would decide ques-
tions of roads and bridges and things of that sort,
which affected several Local Boards; they would
also determine how the District Engineer’s work
was to be divided amongst the Local Boards.
They would be merely a supervising and con-
trolling authority. If started on those lines my
hope is that in course of time those bodies will
grow to be useful advisory bodies both for local
purposes and other purposes as well. That is the
general idea.
45460. (Mr. Hichens.) You refer to a despatch
from the Court of Directors to the Government of
India dated the 10th December, 1834. That
despatch, after pointing out that the superintend-
ence, direction and control of the civil and mili-
tary Government of all the said territories shall
be vested in the said Governor-General in Council,
goes on to point out that it would be incumbent
upon the Government of India to draw, with much
discrimination and reflection, the correct line be-
tween the functions which properly belonged to
the Local and subordinate Governments, and
those which belonged to the general Government;
in other words may I take it that this despatch
practically invites the Government of India to lay
down a policy?—Yes, I think so.
45461. I do not want to bother about the policy
which was laid down then, or the various succes-
sions of policy, but I should like to know what
the policy of the Government of India is to-day ?—
On general lines that is the policy which the
Government of India aims at now.
45462. But what is it? The Government of
India were invited to lay down a policy; what
policy did they lay down ?—What I understand
this despatch to mean is that in any particular
case you should discriminate and reflect carefully
as to the line which divides the functions of a
Local and subordinate Government and a general
Government.
45463. Then may I take it that to-day the
position is that the Government of India have
not laid down in general terms their policy in
relation to the Local . Governments, but they
decide each question as it comes upon its merits?
—Quite so. It is, I believe, impossible for any-
body to lay down any general proposition which
can be applied.
45464. You mean to say it is impossible really
to put it in more specific terms?—There is no
formula in the world that I am acquainted with
which states what functions belong to a Local and
subordinate Government, as such, and what belong
to a general Government, as such. In dealing
with any particular question, whatever it may be,
police administration, education, or what not, you
bear in mind that the Government of India is a
general Government which wants to look at large
questions of policy, and that the Local Govern-
ment is dealing with details, and you endeavour
to shape your orders accordingly.
45465. One must be content with a very broad
definition, and that definition must be, of course,
liable to exceptions ; is the principle on which the
Government of India goes that they deal with
matters of principle and the Local Government
deal with matters of detail ?—Yes ; but a particu-
lar detail may involve a principle, and may for
that reason require the Government of India to
intervene, however reluctantly.
45466. In other words the Government of India
lay down the general principles, and the Local
Government is responsible for carrying them out?
-—Yes ; but 'I should like to point out that you
have not here the guiding factor which you have
in certain other cases of Federal Governments.
Where you have a Federal Government, which
consists of so many Sovereign States, those
Sovereign States gave up this, that and the other
defined functions and kept everything else, which
makes the matter so much clearer. That is not
the case in India. The Local Governments never
were sovereign and independent. From 1833 up
to the time of the iStrachey decentralizations, the
Government of India had everything in their own
hands, and no Local Government could create the