DOI Seite / Zitierlink:
https://doi.org/10.11588/diglit.68026#0188
Sir Herbert
Ruley.
1 Apr., 1908.
182 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Boards?—I mean the Board for a sub-division of
the district.
45825. Wofild you be prepared to give them any
independent financial powers at all ; that is to
say, would you be prepared to ear-mark for
them, as is done in Madras, a certain proportion
of the cesses ?—That is the basis on which I
should like to reconstruct the system. I think
the working bodies you ought to get are at the
bottom, the village unions, or groups of villages,
and the Local Board for a sub-division ; then the
headquarters body would ibe purely a small con-
trolling and supervising body.
45826. With regard to municipalities, they get
no contribution from the Government except for
education and possibly for dispensaries 1 — Every
now and then they get a subsidy for a water-supply
o?.' a drainage scheme ; there is no regular con-
tribution, such as there is in the case of District
Boards.
45827. Are you satisfied with their financial
position ?—They all, of course, want more money
if they are to work up to modern standards. The
money must come from the people of the town—I
see no other source'—and taxation is not popular.
One of the difficulties in these towns is to get
any tax properly assessed and collected. I have
inspected municipalities and discovered that the
members of the municipality—well, they did not
over-assess themselves, nor did they over-assess
their friends.
45828. In some parts of the world there is a
system of endowing municipalities with adjacent
State lands where there are any. Is that a system
which would appeal to you at all?—There are not
enough adjacent State lands in Bengal, at any rate,
to make the question a practicable one.
45829. But where it was a practicable question?
■—I think in Darjeeling some Government land has
been made over to the municipality ; I think it
is a good thing to do ; but it depends very much
on the local circumstances. It is difficult to lay
down as a general proposition that wherever there
is a bit of State land in or near a municipality
it should be made over to the municipality.
45830. There are exceptions to every rule, but
broadly speaking would you be in favour of it?'—
Yes ; in the only instance I can think of, in Dar-
jeeling, it was actually done.
45831. (Mr. Meyer.) I think we are in possession
of certain despatches which have passed between
you and the Secretary of State with regard to the
Home Department; you were allowed, I think,
temporarily an additional Under-Secretary and
certain increases of establishment?—Yes.
45832. Assuming that the labours of this Com-
mission should result in a large increase of decen-
tralization, would it be necessary to maintain the
Home Department at its present strength?—It
certainly ought not to be. Of course, the imme-
diate result would be an enormous increase of
work ; the final relief will not come till some
considerable time after the final orders have been
passed on the orders of the Commission.
45833. And by that time it is possible that a
re-action in the direction of centralization may
have set in?—That is also possible.
45834. I think you have rather missed the point
in your answer to the question “ Is the influence of
the Educational Code too rigid and uniform ; might
further discretion be allowed to local bodies in
regard to school conditions and management ? ”
You have spoken about the European Education
Code. The point in our mind was really whether
the rules in the provincial Education Codes which,
of course, differ in provisions as to curricula, the
hours of attendance, and scales of establishment
and so on, are not too rigid in the case of schools
which are supposed to be run by local bodies. We
have had a certain amount of evidence that the
District Board or municipality, even if it is dis-
posed to take over the management of its own
school, is hampered in regard to school hours,
the strength of classes, and the curricula and so
forth, by the provincial instructions?—The ques-
tion being thus interpreted, the first thing I would
say is that there is no such thing as a provincial
Education Code; a provincial Education Code is
merely a compilation of so many separate orders.
45835. Is it not all uniform and departmental?
—I was looking at the so-called Bengal Code in
proof the other day ; it consists of extracts from
the orders of Government of India, extracts from
the orders of the Government of Bengal, circulars
by the Director of Education, and so on ; it is a
pure compilation.
45836. Surely, for instance, there are definite
rules as to grants-in-aid and curricula? Take
curricula: could a District Board, if it thought
that it was not much use for its pupils to learn
Indian history and geography and that they had
better’ be employed in learning about agriculture,
alter the curriculum ?—I think it is very likely that
the rules are too rigid. One of our objects in
asking Local Governments to consider whether they
should not have school final examinations was to
make the courses more various. The tendency
has been for them to be rigid and uniform, but
I am not sure that you can blame the department
for that; they work up to the matriculation
examination of the university, and that is what
governs many of the curricula.
45837. Down to the very lowest primary schools?
•—Not quite so far down as that.
45838. I think you have told us before that you
are in favour of local bodies, District Board's and
municipalities, having larger control over things
they pay for. Should that not include these
matters as to what is to be taught in their schools,
the hours of attendance and so on? I think there
is a rule which limits one master to so many boys.—■
The University Regulations do go into that very
point, because they found that the tendency was
to give professors and teachers such enormous
classes that it was perfectly impossible for them
to teach properly, so that there is now a hard-and-
fast rule that one professor may not have more
than 150 boys in a class.
45839. That does not apply to the village guru,
does it?— Of course not. It applies only to
colleges.
t 45840. Your position is that the Sub-Divisional
Board should be the real working unit of local
self-government ?■—Yes.
45841. You know that in some cases the Local
Board is the Board for the taluka ot the tahsil
only, and in other cases it is for the sub-division ;
you .prefer the sub-division?—With us it is the
sub-division.
45842. You are speaking simply of Bengal?—
Simply of Bengal.
45843. Your scheme of an elective Sub-Divisional
Board, and so forth, is simply for BengalP—Yes.
45844. You do not prescribe it for Madras or
the Punjab, or any other province?—No.
45845. You have laid stress on the Collector
being Chairman of the District Board with refer-
ence to its diverse interests and the knowledge
involved. If your Sub-Divisional Board is to be
the real working entity, would not the same thing
apply to the Chairmanship of that Board?—I think
that is a tenable criticism, but you have a better
chance in a sub-division of getting people who
really know the local conditions and are disposed
to take trouble about them. The business of the
Local Board again would be comparatively simple,
and they would have little outside correspondence,
so that a locally elected Chairman might be able
to do the work.
45846. You would have the Chairman elected?—
Yes.
45847. And if they choose to elect the Sub-
Divisional Officer? —If they choose to elect the
Sub-Divisional Officer, good and well.
45848. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) You suggest that
the Inspector-General should supply the machinery
whereby the Government of India can exercise
its functions of control and of advising the Secre-
tary of IState; is that not rather- an impossible
task for an Inspector-General seeing that there
are 8 or 9 or 10 provinces; can anybody get round!
Ruley.
1 Apr., 1908.
182 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE :
Boards?—I mean the Board for a sub-division of
the district.
45825. Wofild you be prepared to give them any
independent financial powers at all ; that is to
say, would you be prepared to ear-mark for
them, as is done in Madras, a certain proportion
of the cesses ?—That is the basis on which I
should like to reconstruct the system. I think
the working bodies you ought to get are at the
bottom, the village unions, or groups of villages,
and the Local Board for a sub-division ; then the
headquarters body would ibe purely a small con-
trolling and supervising body.
45826. With regard to municipalities, they get
no contribution from the Government except for
education and possibly for dispensaries 1 — Every
now and then they get a subsidy for a water-supply
o?.' a drainage scheme ; there is no regular con-
tribution, such as there is in the case of District
Boards.
45827. Are you satisfied with their financial
position ?—They all, of course, want more money
if they are to work up to modern standards. The
money must come from the people of the town—I
see no other source'—and taxation is not popular.
One of the difficulties in these towns is to get
any tax properly assessed and collected. I have
inspected municipalities and discovered that the
members of the municipality—well, they did not
over-assess themselves, nor did they over-assess
their friends.
45828. In some parts of the world there is a
system of endowing municipalities with adjacent
State lands where there are any. Is that a system
which would appeal to you at all?—There are not
enough adjacent State lands in Bengal, at any rate,
to make the question a practicable one.
45829. But where it was a practicable question?
■—I think in Darjeeling some Government land has
been made over to the municipality ; I think it
is a good thing to do ; but it depends very much
on the local circumstances. It is difficult to lay
down as a general proposition that wherever there
is a bit of State land in or near a municipality
it should be made over to the municipality.
45830. There are exceptions to every rule, but
broadly speaking would you be in favour of it?'—
Yes ; in the only instance I can think of, in Dar-
jeeling, it was actually done.
45831. (Mr. Meyer.) I think we are in possession
of certain despatches which have passed between
you and the Secretary of State with regard to the
Home Department; you were allowed, I think,
temporarily an additional Under-Secretary and
certain increases of establishment?—Yes.
45832. Assuming that the labours of this Com-
mission should result in a large increase of decen-
tralization, would it be necessary to maintain the
Home Department at its present strength?—It
certainly ought not to be. Of course, the imme-
diate result would be an enormous increase of
work ; the final relief will not come till some
considerable time after the final orders have been
passed on the orders of the Commission.
45833. And by that time it is possible that a
re-action in the direction of centralization may
have set in?—That is also possible.
45834. I think you have rather missed the point
in your answer to the question “ Is the influence of
the Educational Code too rigid and uniform ; might
further discretion be allowed to local bodies in
regard to school conditions and management ? ”
You have spoken about the European Education
Code. The point in our mind was really whether
the rules in the provincial Education Codes which,
of course, differ in provisions as to curricula, the
hours of attendance, and scales of establishment
and so on, are not too rigid in the case of schools
which are supposed to be run by local bodies. We
have had a certain amount of evidence that the
District Board or municipality, even if it is dis-
posed to take over the management of its own
school, is hampered in regard to school hours,
the strength of classes, and the curricula and so
forth, by the provincial instructions?—The ques-
tion being thus interpreted, the first thing I would
say is that there is no such thing as a provincial
Education Code; a provincial Education Code is
merely a compilation of so many separate orders.
45835. Is it not all uniform and departmental?
—I was looking at the so-called Bengal Code in
proof the other day ; it consists of extracts from
the orders of Government of India, extracts from
the orders of the Government of Bengal, circulars
by the Director of Education, and so on ; it is a
pure compilation.
45836. Surely, for instance, there are definite
rules as to grants-in-aid and curricula? Take
curricula: could a District Board, if it thought
that it was not much use for its pupils to learn
Indian history and geography and that they had
better’ be employed in learning about agriculture,
alter the curriculum ?—I think it is very likely that
the rules are too rigid. One of our objects in
asking Local Governments to consider whether they
should not have school final examinations was to
make the courses more various. The tendency
has been for them to be rigid and uniform, but
I am not sure that you can blame the department
for that; they work up to the matriculation
examination of the university, and that is what
governs many of the curricula.
45837. Down to the very lowest primary schools?
•—Not quite so far down as that.
45838. I think you have told us before that you
are in favour of local bodies, District Board's and
municipalities, having larger control over things
they pay for. Should that not include these
matters as to what is to be taught in their schools,
the hours of attendance and so on? I think there
is a rule which limits one master to so many boys.—■
The University Regulations do go into that very
point, because they found that the tendency was
to give professors and teachers such enormous
classes that it was perfectly impossible for them
to teach properly, so that there is now a hard-and-
fast rule that one professor may not have more
than 150 boys in a class.
45839. That does not apply to the village guru,
does it?— Of course not. It applies only to
colleges.
t 45840. Your position is that the Sub-Divisional
Board should be the real working unit of local
self-government ?■—Yes.
45841. You know that in some cases the Local
Board is the Board for the taluka ot the tahsil
only, and in other cases it is for the sub-division ;
you .prefer the sub-division?—With us it is the
sub-division.
45842. You are speaking simply of Bengal?—
Simply of Bengal.
45843. Your scheme of an elective Sub-Divisional
Board, and so forth, is simply for BengalP—Yes.
45844. You do not prescribe it for Madras or
the Punjab, or any other province?—No.
45845. You have laid stress on the Collector
being Chairman of the District Board with refer-
ence to its diverse interests and the knowledge
involved. If your Sub-Divisional Board is to be
the real working entity, would not the same thing
apply to the Chairmanship of that Board?—I think
that is a tenable criticism, but you have a better
chance in a sub-division of getting people who
really know the local conditions and are disposed
to take trouble about them. The business of the
Local Board again would be comparatively simple,
and they would have little outside correspondence,
so that a locally elected Chairman might be able
to do the work.
45846. You would have the Chairman elected?—
Yes.
45847. And if they choose to elect the Sub-
Divisional Officer? —If they choose to elect the
Sub-Divisional Officer, good and well.
45848. (Sir Steyning Edgerley.) You suggest that
the Inspector-General should supply the machinery
whereby the Government of India can exercise
its functions of control and of advising the Secre-
tary of IState; is that not rather- an impossible
task for an Inspector-General seeing that there
are 8 or 9 or 10 provinces; can anybody get round!